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How does our feedback work

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Blacklynx's Avatar


Blacklynx
06.22.2017 , 11:47 AM | #201
Thak you for showing how feedback is gathered, it's an interesting process as well as complicated, and for those involved must be quite annoying at times as well.

However, and i hope you don't take it the wrong way, what the heck happened with the big amount of feedback, mostly negative, about the introduction of the Galactic Command Crates. What missed there? especially since after it's introduction you rushed with fixes and improvements and nowdays is almost as it was before, except pvp still needs some twiking.

Was it so far ahead in developement that you could do nothing but implement it, despite our feedback?

Again, i hope i didn't anger or annoy with this question, and big thanks for the greatly improved communication, but this is something that naggs me.

OneHit's Avatar


OneHit
06.22.2017 , 11:55 AM | #202
Quote: Originally Posted by Damask_Rose View Post
Unfortunately, yes, I think it really is hard to get along. Think of developing SWtOR as being like feeding a pack of starving dogs. There is only enough kibble for one dog to get a full belly and the pack knows that. When they see that bowl of kibble coming they will fight to get what they can. The bigger, stronger dogs will get most of the food, but not enough to be satisfied, and the smaller, weaker dogs will be lucky to get any food at all. Now if there was enough kibble for all dogs to get a decent meal, then you could ask for them to sit pretty and wait their turn.

One thing I think is important when giving feedback is being clear and concise. I have seen a lot of people giving feedback using very vague terms. Like people saying they want PvE content when what they really mean is group content. Or saying group content when what they really mean is classic operations. KotET provided quite a bit of PvE group content at launch, but it wasn't the right PvE group content. If you ask for PvE content and they give you Uprisings and DvL world bosses, they are giving you what you said you wanted. Don't leave room for misinterpretations.
While I do understand the not enough kibble argument. And that may work for people who are new to the game. I remember 0.0 - 3.0 and there was enough kibble. 3.0 and on we started to get a lot less kibble. Subscription fees remained the same. The price of expansions did drop. But I can't recall anyone qq'ing about paying for an expansion who wasn't already f2p.

To a certain extent some of this happens. Sure some people asked for more pve and didn't specify. But then there was the streams where NEW OPS was spammed. Like over and over again. For like a year. Along with many requests for new PvP, And an acknowledgment that GSF existed not to mention some love. So I also don't buy it. Tait was slowing people and banning them from twitch left and right and they still couldn't stop the spam.

And when they become dis honest with us is when I became toxic. And this is where I refuse to give any Dev a pass. Because they all know that it was stated for SoR we would would not have to wait more than a year for new ops. Which is fine if that alone was mis spoke. Or things didn't work out. But after that year is when they started stringing us along. Keith may think that the community had become toxic over the lack of communication. Personally I think it was lies that were communicated to us that turned the community toxic. I know that's when I turned toxic. Cause I watched all those streams where we were told we can't talk about ops. But group content is coming. And they couldn't say what that meant. So stay tuned. So I don't want to hear that we didn't communicate which we wanted. They refused to communicate what was coming. In a most dis honest way. And every stream they would say were going to talk about it. But this is the story stream. Like that mattered one bit. Every stream was the story stream cause they knew this one boss was years off. And they weren't remotely honest about it. When that's acknowledged you will gain some ground with me. Thats why were toxic.

But Keith. If you're really honest answer this question honestly. Not one single person on Your team has.

How many new pvp's were released last year? If you worked for wow before working for this game Keith then you understand the lingo. If you PVP then you know exactly what I mean. This is a lie I've seen your team push since the release of Odessen. I lie ive seen you push. It's not a stretch of words. It's actually pretty clear two anyone who pvp's.

How many new Pvp's were released last year?

Cause I don't want to hear about how the community is toxic about communication if you are unwilling to own all of it. Not if you're going to push aside the non flattering parts.

Also Keith you stated that you think the community holds animosity towards the devs but the devs didn't hold any against us. Well I watched all those streams. And sure you know him a lot better than we do. But some animosity came across pretty clearly. It wasn't musco (who has taken more abuse than anyone), and forgive me I can't remember his name but the lead writer. He was decent about it too. But the third part of the dream team seemed pretty pissed off that we weren't happy being lied too. Which I don't mind cause it was honest. But let's not make it dishonest and act like it didn't happen. Let's not say we delivered on more pvp's then we did.

And for the people who are still here you should be kissing their asses. Maybe not mine since I don't hold back and don't mind stepping on some feelings to get my point across. But a lot of us still here watched this game tank. Watch guilds tank. Watched our friends leave an stuck around. I'm a GM of a guild and like many if us we put in a lot of work trying to hold this game together. All the while your team wasn't forthright. And wasn't as honest as they could be.

Own that. Cause all this extra communication is only going to make me more toxic if it's more lies

ZionHalcyon's Avatar


ZionHalcyon
06.22.2017 , 12:04 PM | #203
Quote: Originally Posted by Andryah View Post
KoTFE and KoTET got a lot of hate AND acceptance from the broader player base. I think a lot of the expressed hate was a combination of pent-up frustrations looking for things to discharge on, particularly over the narrow set of content released in the last two expacs which did nothing to satisfy PvPers and OPs raiders. As for story... I expect they will keep taking a different direction in story with each expac (which is really what they have done since launch in one way or the other). Not saying that is the right move.. just observing the nature of the studio to experiment and test new waters in MMO approach... which for classic veteran MMO players probably ruffles a lot of feathers. In the MMO space, Bioware still owns story vs their competitors in my view... though different players have different wants for story... and Biowares curse here is that they laid out an epic multi-class story arc in the vanilla release.... but they also had years and hundreds of millions of dollars to set all that up too... which is not realistic in my view for future expansions... particularly when this studio does yearly expacs.. rather then once every 2 to 3 years.
The KOTFE story got a lot of hate as well, and even though you downplay it, the ratio of love to hate in admittedly the limited sample sizes we have seems to vary between 3-1 and 7-8 to 1 for those who hate it vs those who love it.

What I mean by that is, when someone says "I love the story, and everyone I know does too!", usually its that one person repeatedly posting this, whereas that person will have anywhere from 3-8 DIFFERENT people saying "Uh, no, that story stunk because it wasn't true to Star Wars OR the stories that came before."

This is noticeable in the game in group chat when it comes up, in the forums when it comes up, and in reddit when it comes up, and the people defending are often outnumbered by about 3-8 for every one of them defending the story.

That is a significant discrepancy to try to downplay. And the stunning thing is those who did not like the story all have the same 2 criticisms for the most part - it didn't feel like Star Wars, and it ignored/crapped on/erased essentially all the previous story with its plotline. Those 2 points are the thrust of many different people.

This isn't something to chalk up to "well, in MMOs, every story is different, so ceil la vie!" Because that argument ignores the fact that, aside from Makeb by a small margin with regards to class story, every single expansion prior to KOTFE remained true to the tone, feel, and overall plot SWTOR had to offer, despite different stories and scenarios - that right there kills the "just wait for another story" argument.

Sorry that I am so hard nosed about this, but the truth is that in a sense, it almost goes back to the debates about the old Star Wars books that are legends territory now - some people were just content to read those books and have the names of the characters be the same as the names of the characters in the movies, and therefore loved the stories. Others however, would notice that for instance, "Luke Skywalker" was acting in a manner that wasn't how the movie character would act, or that scenes in some books seemed to be written around a character saying his "catch phrase" rather than serving the story. It was why Timothy Zahn always got such high praise - he wrote all the Star Wars characters as they would have been in the movies, and actually captured the spirit and essence of Star Wars in his books. As an author, he was true to the integrity of the overall Star Wars story.

Likewise here, the story BioWare told was rich, compelling, and flat out captured the spirit and essence of Star Wars - right up until KOTFE, where you are pulled right out of the previous plot and put into a setting, scenario, and story that feels very generic, very forced, and almost screams "please forget about everything before KOTFE! Those stories never really happened!" in terms of the overall tone, at least for those who loved Ziost and everything that came before.

Best way I can describe it is, imagine if you went to see a Star Wars movie. 2/3 of the film were vintage, enjoyable Star Wars. Then in the last 3rd, suddenly the main character is on the bridge of the Enterprise and the last 3rd of the movie is a Star Trek film that ignores what happened in the first 2/3rds other than some cursory lines to mention that it happened, and then is ignored for the rest of the film.

Would you be happy spending money on a film like that? I'm sure some people somewhere would love that - does that make it ok for them to do that? If so, how can you justify that to those wanting to see an entire Star Wars film? Tough Luck, wait for the next film? If you can't justify it, why is it not ok to do in a movie, but its ok to do in a game based on the movie? Both are entertainment, and both have a certain expectation just based on the property, and that expectation ISN'T WRONG. It's not wrong to go to a Star Wars movie and want the whole film to be Star Wars. Its NOT WRONG to play a Star Wars BioWare game, have an excellent time through Shadow of Revan, and then EXPECT that KotFE and beyond CONTINUE the threads of the story that came before, rather than treating it like a nuisance to be disposed of.

This is where every argument of people who defend the current story falls completely apart - it is indefensible in any rational literary, story-telling sense. The argument that "some people like it" doesn't hold water, because more people don't, because that ratio IS measurable by anyone willing to look, and because the game commits the cardinal sin of literary world building - you do not betray your own story. And that is what BioWare did with KotFE and KotET.

It may never get fixed. Or maybe they do move on and move back to the original story given the feedback, and that is all you were trying to express.

But I just can't let the soft downplaying of the impact of the KOTFE story slide any more - its disingenuous.

OneHit's Avatar


OneHit
06.22.2017 , 12:14 PM | #204
Quote: Originally Posted by ZionHalcyon View Post
The KOTFE story got a lot of hate as well, and even though you downplay it, the ratio of love to hate in admittedly the limited sample sizes we have seems to vary between 3-1 and 7-8 to 1 for those who hate it vs those who love it.

What I mean by that is, when someone says "I love the story, and everyone I know does too!", usually its that one person repeatedly posting this, whereas that person will have anywhere from 3-8 DIFFERENT people saying "Uh, no, that story stunk because it wasn't true to Star Wars OR the stories that came before."

This is noticeable in the game in group chat when it comes up, in the forums when it comes up, and in reddit when it comes up, and the people defending are often outnumbered by about 3-8 for every one of them defending the story.

That is a significant discrepancy to try to downplay. And the stunning thing is those who did not like the story all have the same 2 criticisms for the most part - it didn't feel like Star Wars, and it ignored/crapped on/erased essentially all the previous story with its plotline. Those 2 points are the thrust of many different people.

This isn't something to chalk up to "well, in MMOs, every story is different, so ceil la vie!" Because that argument ignores the fact that, aside from Makeb by a small margin with regards to class story, every single expansion prior to KOTFE remained true to the tone, feel, and overall plot SWTOR had to offer, despite different stories and scenarios - that right there kills the "just wait for another story" argument.

Sorry that I am so hard nosed about this, but the truth is that in a sense, it almost goes back to the debates about the old Star Wars books that are legends territory now - some people were just content to read those books and have the names of the characters be the same as the names of the characters in the movies, and therefore loved the stories. Others however, would notice that for instance, "Luke Skywalker" was acting in a manner that wasn't how the movie character would act, or that scenes in some books seemed to be written around a character saying his "catch phrase" rather than serving the story. It was why Timothy Zahn always got such high praise - he wrote all the Star Wars characters as they would have been in the movies, and actually captured the spirit and essence of Star Wars in his books. As an author, he was true to the integrity of the overall Star Wars story.

Likewise here, the story BioWare told was rich, compelling, and flat out captured the spirit and essence of Star Wars - right up until KOTFE, where you are pulled right out of the previous plot and put into a setting, scenario, and story that feels very generic, very forced, and almost screams "please forget about everything before KOTFE! Those stories never really happened!" in terms of the overall tone, at least for those who loved Ziost and everything that came before.

Best way I can describe it is, imagine if you went to see a Star Wars movie. 2/3 of the film were vintage, enjoyable Star Wars. Then in the last 3rd, suddenly the main character is on the bridge of the Enterprise and the last 3rd of the movie is a Star Trek film that ignores what happened in the first 2/3rds other than some cursory lines to mention that it happened, and then is ignored for the rest of the film.

Would you be happy spending money on a film like that? I'm sure some people somewhere would love that - does that make it ok for them to do that? If so, how can you justify that to those wanting to see an entire Star Wars film? Tough Luck, wait for the next film? If you can't justify it, why is it not ok to do in a movie, but its ok to do in a game based on the movie? Both are entertainment, and both have a certain expectation just based on the property, and that expectation ISN'T WRONG. It's not wrong to go to a Star Wars movie and want the whole film to be Star Wars. Its NOT WRONG to play a Star Wars BioWare game, have an excellent time through Shadow of Revan, and then EXPECT that KotFE and beyond CONTINUE the threads of the story that came before, rather than treating it like a nuisance to be disposed of.

This is where every argument of people who defend the current story falls completely apart - it is indefensible in any rational literary, story-telling sense. The argument that "some people like it" doesn't hold water, because more people don't, because that ratio IS measurable by anyone willing to look, and because the game commits the cardinal sin of literary world building - you do not betray your own story. And that is what BioWare did with KotFE and KotET.

It may never get fixed. Or maybe they do move on and move back to the original story given the feedback, and that is all you were trying to express.

But I just can't let the soft downplaying of the impact of the KOTFE story slide any more - its disingenuous.
They'll just say silent majority an brush it off

ZionHalcyon's Avatar


ZionHalcyon
06.22.2017 , 12:19 PM | #205
Quote: Originally Posted by OneHit View Post
They'll just say silent majority an brush it off
Seems to me a vocal majority hated the new direction. I remember after KotFE hit the thread after thread of people upset and saying they're leaving over the new direction.

And given the forums here are nowhere near as busy as they were back then, I'm going to guess they did end up leaving.

OneHit's Avatar


OneHit
06.22.2017 , 12:26 PM | #206
Quote: Originally Posted by ZionHalcyon View Post
Seems to me a vocal majority hated the new direction. I remember after KotFE hit the thread after thread of people upset and saying they're leaving over the new direction.

And given the forums here are nowhere near as busy as they were back then, I'm going to guess they did end up leaving.

I completely agree with you. I've never once seen a majority be quiet about it. But that's just me. I don't believe in **** that doesn't exist

TUXs's Avatar


TUXs
06.22.2017 , 12:50 PM | #207
Quote: Originally Posted by ZionHalcyon View Post
Seems to me a vocal majority hated the new direction. I remember after KotFE hit the thread after thread of people upset and saying they're leaving over the new direction.

And given the forums here are nowhere near as busy as they were back then, I'm going to guess they did end up leaving.
Agreed! It was the majority.
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Xo-Lara's Avatar


Xo-Lara
06.22.2017 , 12:51 PM | #208
I think this is really important:
Quote: Originally Posted by Damask_Rose View Post
One thing I think is important when giving feedback is being clear and concise. I have seen a lot of people giving feedback using very vague terms. Like people saying they want PvE content when what they really mean is group content. Or saying group content when what they really mean is classic operations. KotET provided quite a bit of PvE group content at launch, but it wasn't the right PvE group content. If you ask for PvE content and they give you Uprisings and DvL world bosses, they are giving you what you said you wanted. Don't leave room for misinterpretations.
I know at times I'm not entirely sure what a player is asking for simply because of how they ask or how disorganized their thoughts are. I'm sure the devs have the same problem. it would probably help if people took more time gathering their thoughts over gathering their rants.

Here's a solution. Come up with two sentences: what I want; why I feel it is needed. Then put all of the explanation below the two sentences.

This way, you will know if you are trying to address too many problems at once; you won't be able to fit the base idea into two sentences. Also, you will have trouble forming the sentences if your idea of the problem is hazy. More importantly, there will be a quick obvious point that even a skimmer can pick out, but you won't have to sacrifice commentary.
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vjdurjvldir's Avatar


vjdurjvldir
06.22.2017 , 01:03 PM | #209
Ok, I have to say it works. Great job with the feedback! Was listening to the bad feeling podcast now. I loved every bit of it.

ZionHalcyon's Avatar


ZionHalcyon
06.22.2017 , 01:10 PM | #210
Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
Agreed! It was the majority.
And to be clear - I don't fault anyone who likes KotFE. Different strokes for different folks.

But don't misrepresent or else intentionally downplay that those people are (or at least were) in the minority, and the majority by all measurements hated the new story direction.

And by challenging the developers to put out a better, more cohesive story to the one we all fell in love with pre-KotFE, the underlying idea is that it ends up being worth it because you may be able to get some of the players who left BACK - likely slowly at first, but via word of mouth, you may be able to build the population back up, and more players playing benefits EVERYONE.