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Class changes: Nerf vs. Buff

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Class changes: Nerf vs. Buff
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WelbyWars's Avatar


WelbyWars
06.20.2017 , 12:35 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaldron_Fell View Post
. I know I need my utilities and my damage for PvE, not because I'm a poor player, but because I very often have to carry people in PUGs. Not sure how well I can do that if all of my survivability is removed?


And just randomly swinging the nerf hammer - no matter how hard - will piss off people like me.

What do you all think?
Are they 'Randomly' swinging the nerf hammer, though? You really think that?

And don't worry about being the swell guy and carrying Pug members. If all goes to plan those weaker classes will be buffed so you don't have to.

masterceil's Avatar


masterceil
06.20.2017 , 12:41 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by bluehufsa View Post
And i repeat.. if my merc does not PvP at all - my computer is a garbage and i prefer to invest money in my motorcycle than in my computer - why should she be nerfed? Let's face it, everyone like to be in a flashpoint with a lvl 70 merc..
(Almost) nobody wanted merc damage nerfed. PVE didn't care about mercs at all, and PVP have long been complaining about merc survivability - the DPS can act like a tank, and shouldn't be able to.

Tac FPs you should still be able to faceroll even if merc DCDs did get nerfed. HM FPs, you should be doing with a proper group that knows what they're doing anyway (including tank and healer).

You shouldn't get a character on par with the GSIus droid from Solo FPs just because you want to carry three scrubs, though. They should git gud, and you should lose Trauma Regulators, at least.
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bluehufsa's Avatar


bluehufsa
06.20.2017 , 01:00 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by masterceil View Post
(Almost) nobody wanted merc damage nerfed. PVE didn't care about mercs at all, and PVP have long been complaining about merc survivability - the DPS can act like a tank, and shouldn't be able to.

Tac FPs you should still be able to faceroll even if merc DCDs did get nerfed. HM FPs, you should be doing with a proper group that knows what they're doing anyway (including tank and healer).

You shouldn't get a character on par with the GSIus droid from Solo FPs just because you want to carry three scrubs, though. They should git gud, and you should lose Trauma Regulators, at least.
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EricMusco's Avatar


EricMusco
06.20.2017 , 02:13 PM | #14 This is the last staff post in this thread.  
Hey folks,

Any time that nerfs happen during Class balance, there is a common question we receive “Instead of nerfing <insert Class>, why not buff all of the other Classes up to their performance?” This is a really good question and we want to try to explain to you why we handle balance this way. For starters, if you haven’t read our detailed breakdown of how we balance Classes, please start there. From that thread, the main point you need to understand is that we balance Classes/Disciplines based on specific DPS, HPS, and DTPS targets.

Now, those balance targets not only dictate Class/Discipline balance, but they dictate balance across all combat in the entire game. Every Mission, Operation boss, piece of gear, and more is all factored around those balance targets. Let’s say that our hypothetical target for Ranged Burst is 1000 DPS and that Arsenal Mercs are currently performing at 1,200 DPS. This means that they are killing everything in the game 20% faster than we intended them to. Again, that’s every boss and every Mission. The inverse is true of Classes that have lower than desired DPS.

If we took every Class and moved it so that it was equal to the highest performing one, now everyone would be way stronger than we intended based on our balance targets. PvE content in general would become too easy, the “time to kill” in PvP would go down quite a bit making for less counter-play. The only way we would be able to “move everyone up to the best Class” is if we simultaneously rebalanced the entire game to be equal to that new target. That kind of thing typically only happens when we increase the level cap, as it is a massive undertaking.

TLDR – The entire game’s combat revolves around balance targets. To keep things in-line we have to move Classes up or down to be around that target or it throws things off greatly from their intended balance.

-eric
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ZionHalcyon's Avatar


ZionHalcyon
06.20.2017 , 02:31 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Hey folks,

Any time that nerfs happen during Class balance, there is a common question we receive “Instead of nerfing <insert Class>, why not buff all of the other Classes up to their performance?” This is a really good question and we want to try to explain to you why we handle balance this way. For starters, if you haven’t read our detailed breakdown of how we balance Classes, please start there. From that thread, the main point you need to understand is that we balance Classes/Disciplines based on specific DPS, HPS, and DTPS targets.

Now, those balance targets not only dictate Class/Discipline balance, but they dictate balance across all combat in the entire game. Every Mission, Operation boss, piece of gear, and more is all factored around those balance targets. Let’s say that our hypothetical target for Ranged Burst is 1000 DPS and that Arsenal Mercs are currently performing at 1,200 DPS. This means that they are killing everything in the game 20% faster than we intended them to. Again, that’s every boss and every Mission. The inverse is true of Classes that have lower than desired DPS.

If we took every Class and moved it so that it was equal to the highest performing one, now everyone would be way stronger than we intended based on our balance targets. PvE content in general would become too easy, the “time to kill” in PvP would go down quite a bit making for less counter-play. The only way we would be able to “move everyone up to the best Class” is if we simultaneously rebalanced the entire game to be equal to that new target. That kind of thing typically only happens when we increase the level cap, as it is a massive undertaking.

TLDR – The entire game’s combat revolves around balance targets. To keep things in-line we have to move Classes up or down to be around that target or it throws things off greatly from their intended balance.

-eric

Thank you Eric.

I would have thought this would be common sense after reading the initial post you linked, but thank you for spelling it out here for those that needed it.

TUXs's Avatar


TUXs
06.20.2017 , 02:31 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
TLDR – The entire game’s combat revolves around balance targets. To keep things in-line we have to move Classes up or down to be around that target or it throws things off greatly from their intended balance.

-eric
I just want to comment on this...I think you guys have done remarkably well with this during the past 2 major updates (4.0 and 5.0). None of the Ops have "felt" that different in terms of difficulty.
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Ottoattack's Avatar


Ottoattack
06.20.2017 , 02:38 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Hey folks,

Any time that nerfs happen during Class balance, there is a common question we receive “Instead of nerfing <insert Class>, why not buff all of the other Classes up to their performance?” This is a really good question and we want to try to explain to you why we handle balance this way. For starters, if you haven’t read our detailed breakdown of how we balance Classes, please start there. From that thread, the main point you need to understand is that we balance Classes/Disciplines based on specific DPS, HPS, and DTPS targets.

Now, those balance targets not only dictate Class/Discipline balance, but they dictate balance across all combat in the entire game. Every Mission, Operation boss, piece of gear, and more is all factored around those balance targets. Let’s say that our hypothetical target for Ranged Burst is 1000 DPS and that Arsenal Mercs are currently performing at 1,200 DPS. This means that they are killing everything in the game 20% faster than we intended them to. Again, that’s every boss and every Mission. The inverse is true of Classes that have lower than desired DPS.

If we took every Class and moved it so that it was equal to the highest performing one, now everyone would be way stronger than we intended based on our balance targets. PvE content in general would become too easy, the “time to kill” in PvP would go down quite a bit making for less counter-play. The only way we would be able to “move everyone up to the best Class” is if we simultaneously rebalanced the entire game to be equal to that new target. That kind of thing typically only happens when we increase the level cap, as it is a massive undertaking.

TLDR – The entire game’s combat revolves around balance targets. To keep things in-line we have to move Classes up or down to be around that target or it throws things off greatly from their intended balance.

-eric
Question, what is the "target"? It is a serious question. Cuz based on the info you guys provided, and talking purely from PvE perspective, the current gap between parsers is around 15%. Arsenal was around 8-9% behind top parsers (which would put them right were you guys said they should hypothetically be) then you nerfed the to the level of lightning and MM, even though these are 1) 15% behind top, 2) considered not viable for NiM mode.

So.. what is the "target"?

Nightblazer's Avatar


Nightblazer
06.20.2017 , 02:44 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by ZionHalcyon View Post
Thank you Eric.

I would have thought this would be common sense after reading the initial post you linked, but thank you for spelling it out here for those that needed it.
Unfortunately common sense isn't common.
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Andryah's Avatar


Andryah
06.20.2017 , 02:49 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Hey folks,

Any time that nerfs happen during Class balance, there is a common question we receive “Instead of nerfing <insert Class>, why not buff all of the other Classes up to their performance?” This is a really good question and we want to try to explain to you why we handle balance this way. For starters, if you haven’t read our detailed breakdown of how we balance Classes, please start there. From that thread, the main point you need to understand is that we balance Classes/Disciplines based on specific DPS, HPS, and DTPS targets.

Now, those balance targets not only dictate Class/Discipline balance, but they dictate balance across all combat in the entire game. Every Mission, Operation boss, piece of gear, and more is all factored around those balance targets. Let’s say that our hypothetical target for Ranged Burst is 1000 DPS and that Arsenal Mercs are currently performing at 1,200 DPS. This means that they are killing everything in the game 20% faster than we intended them to. Again, that’s every boss and every Mission. The inverse is true of Classes that have lower than desired DPS.

If we took every Class and moved it so that it was equal to the highest performing one, now everyone would be way stronger than we intended based on our balance targets. PvE content in general would become too easy, the “time to kill” in PvP would go down quite a bit making for less counter-play. The only way we would be able to “move everyone up to the best Class” is if we simultaneously rebalanced the entire game to be equal to that new target. That kind of thing typically only happens when we increase the level cap, as it is a massive undertaking.

TLDR – The entire game’s combat revolves around balance targets. To keep things in-line we have to move Classes up or down to be around that target or it throws things off greatly from their intended balance.

-eric
Makes complete sense, but unfortunately even clear gold posts fall on deaf ears in this forum.

If every class balance change is only allowed via buffing... the characters quickly become over powered for content.... you know.. content many people already complain is too easy.
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Lahandra's Avatar


Lahandra
06.20.2017 , 02:51 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by masterceil View Post
(Almost) nobody wanted merc damage nerfed. PVE didn't care about mercs at all, and PVP have long been complaining about merc survivability - the DPS can act like a tank, and shouldn't be able to.
Everyone I know in the PVE community, across 4 different guilds and raid groups, and anyone who's honest about it, pretty much agree that Arsenal needed a slight nerf..... Maybe not to the extent that it's getting, but it certainly could afford a hit to bring it in line with some of the other burst specs. MM and Lightning should have in turn been brought up, just a bit, for a middle ground on the burst specs.

Quote: Originally Posted by masterceil View Post
Tac FPs you should still be able to faceroll even if merc DCDs did get nerfed. HM FPs, you should be doing with a proper group that knows what they're doing anyway (including tank and healer).
Tac FP's are already a faceroll on any class........ If you know the class.......

Quote: Originally Posted by masterceil View Post
You shouldn't get a character on par with the GSIus droid from Solo FPs just because you want to carry three scrubs, though. They should git gud, and you should lose Trauma Regulators, at least.
Again, you can carry three scrubs through any tactical on almost any class..... Personally, I've done it on mara, sniper, merc, op, PT, and sin myself...... So not really sure how tactical FP's play into any of it.
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