Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Star Wars™: The Old Republic™ - Road Map 2017

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Star Wars™: The Old Republic™ - Road Map 2017
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

EzioMessi's Avatar


EzioMessi
06.11.2017 , 01:10 PM | #631
Quote: Originally Posted by Yezzan View Post
I haven't missed anything. You are asking BW to entice PvE-ers (with "rewards") to do OWPvP so you can ganked them. Errmm, sorry have fun....

Have you seen any raiders asking BW to dumb-down NiM so more people can do it? Nope. They just hop in and do NiM runs with their guilds, until they get bored, and whine for more ops.

So, what's different about OWPvP? Why aren't all PvP-ers flocking to OWPvP instances to beat each other up? Why does Bw needs to increase the incentive of doing so? Why is OWPvP dead? Hmm? because PvP is a niche community; and unless you can bait casuals in to doing this type of content, these instances will be ghost towns.

Bottom line is these rewards that you (PvPers) are requesting is not for yourselves, but to lure PvE players to their deaths. Plain and simple. Or are you saying you ( PvPers) need incentives to PvP?
..... So you're saying rewarding content is bad? How exactly is rewarding OWPvP any different than rewarding PvE? What does dumbing down NiM have to do with this?

If OWPvP shouldn't have rewards because it "baits" casuals into getting ganked, then what exactly is the difference with NiM? NiM has rewards to "bait" casuals into getting ganked by bosses who they have no hope of beating, doesn't it? What is this ridiculous double standard, "It's okay to reward this type of content that I am okay with, but don't dare reward someone else's content"?

And yes, we (PvPers) are in fact saying that we (PvPers) need rewards for doing PvP. This game has one of the grindiest PvP endgames in existence. It can take over a month and a half for PvPers to fully gear ONE character if they combine that with PvE. Pure PvPers simply can't even gear up. If they spend ANY time on an unrewarded activity, they suffer a massive penalty for it.

This is in fact true for ALL gamemodes. Everyone aside from pure RPers need incentive to stay in their own content. Take away the gear grind and rare platinum drops from NiM, and all of a sudden the NiM community will die. This isn't because NiM is inherently boring, it's because MMOs are inherently grindy, and any activity that doesn't help with the grind gets discarded almost instantly by most endgame players. This is in fact one of the major complaints of PvErs right now. The "best" way to gear up is to do SM and HM Ops, and once you're in full 242s and have saved all the shells, it's easier to get 248 pieces from PvP, rather than PvE, so many raiders do just that. NiM suffers simply because HM + PvP is the faster and easier grind to do.

So it's not unprecedented for endgame players to demand incentive for their content, it keeps new players coming in and keeps veterans staying in. This is in fact a historical fact with plenty of research done on this too. Give shiny rewards for succeeding in game -> More players play the game -> More players pay for the game. This has been a fact since the gaming industry started, and is even more absurdly true with the advent of portable gaming.

And most of all, if your wildly inaccurate assessment of how "PvP is a niche community" was even remotely true, why is it that Ilum PvP becomes extremely active every time the Gree Event comes around and why did Bioware specifically attempted to implement a PvP world, despite it apparently not being played by anyone? Why does Bioware release new Warzones, Ranked reward, PvP class balance if it's so niche that simply labelling an instance PvP causes it to die? Why is it that we somehow have 25000 Ranked players on the leaderboards, in a game with 200k-500k subscribers? (And Ranked is a small fraction of the PvP community, so the number of PvPers is, in all likelihood, in the 100k-200k range) Maybe the situation is a lot more complicated than the "I don't like PvP = no one likes PvP = PvP dies and deserves it" you'remaking it out to be?

Bioware recognizes that OWPvP is simply another gameplay style that will enrich their game with variety, much like Ops, Flashpoints, Uprisings, solo story content, instanced PvP and GSF, Strongholds and RP have done. They may be faltering in how they implement it, but they clearly do see the necessity of it. All you're doing is coming into a thread where a Bioware dev specifically said they're interested in hearing our suggestions about OWPvP, and whining that the content you will never have to touch has somehow personally slighted you.

Lay off with the victim complex and the "ME ME ME" attitude, OWPvP rewards ARE NOT about the players like yourself who hate PvP anyways. It's about the players who are iffy about PvP or about PvPers who are forced to go into instanced PvP because OWPvP has no rewards in one of the grindiest games there is.

If you have anything to add that actually
1. Contributes solving this apparent ganking problem that you claim exists despite there being PvP-immunity
or
2. Contributes to adding on to content that you are actually playing

then by all means, continue posting. But if your only point is that you personally dislike PvP and the Devs should listen to you solely despite contradicting evidence, then lay off please, because there is clearly a significant minority of players whose game would be enriched by the addition of OWPvP to the supposed "PvP world" Iokath, and there are ways to do it without involving players who hate the idea of PvP so much that they don't want PvP content added at all.
The Harbinger - The Raider Legacy
Attair - Level 70 Sentinel
If you like my comment, please click my referral link for free goodies for both you and
me: http://www.swtor.com/r/3XbB9h

EzioMessi's Avatar


EzioMessi
06.11.2017 , 01:17 PM | #632
Quote: Originally Posted by Endrinhael View Post
I don't know if the Dev's are still monitoring this discussion, but there is a question I HAVE to ask.

To make myself clear, I dislike and completely avoid PVP in games. Why? Lets just say I have had bad experiences with the PvP playerbase in every game that included it, so I will NOT participate in it ever again.

Now to my question, will you ever allow me to enjoy Galactic Star fighter (other than the limited tutorial) without having to PvP? I know there are many in t he PvE community like myself that completely avoid GSF because of the PvP. WIll you eventually open it up so ALL of your playerbase can enjoy it, or with you continue to keep it closed off to a small niche community?

If any of the Devs can answer this, I would greatly appreciate it.
The issue with GSF is that it's like, ENTIRELY different from EVERYTHING we have in the rest of the game. The combat is different, it has 3D depth instead of 2D movement, it has mouse controlled movement and requires smarter maneuvers, positioning and aiming.

The AI for most MMOs is designed in a scripted manner. They set up simple triggers such as health %, timers and positioning, that allow the boss to change its behaviour.

GSF AI would be an entirely different beast. They would basically be designing a new space combat game from the ground up, and the investment for that *may* not be worth it.

I suggest making separate threads that allow you to consolidate the demand for this feature all in one place, here you're gonna be drowned out by others' demands ( the last several pages have been about OWPvP for example). Use a central thread, do informal surveys, and then draw Keith's attention to that thread. Basically give Bioware some vague metric that says "yes if we invest the money it takes to make a brand new space combat game in this game with a decent AI, we'll satisfy so many of our players' demands that it'll be worth it".

You'll also have better luck posting around a time when you saw a recent dev post, otherwise they may not even get around to reading your post in these several pages of demands we have.
The Harbinger - The Raider Legacy
Attair - Level 70 Sentinel
If you like my comment, please click my referral link for free goodies for both you and
me: http://www.swtor.com/r/3XbB9h

Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
06.11.2017 , 01:22 PM | #633
I do wonder whether this thread is monitored at all at this point. I mean it is getting quite big and there are a lot of questions asked. It would be amazing if people got replies but at this point I am afraid it has gotten too much for them to handle it all. It is likely they'll respond to the questions they see on the last page of the thread if they notice it.
ATTENTION: Include the Twi'lek into the 3 new eye colours from Appearance Options: Expanded Selections in the next patch. It was a huge mistake to not do this from the start as they are being grossly neglected as a playable species.
Oh yeah, and this is my referral link!

cagthehack's Avatar


cagthehack
06.11.2017 , 01:33 PM | #634
Quote: Originally Posted by Icykill_ View Post
What works in Arena and classic WZs doesn't always translate to OWPVP. I would be more scared of 2-3 Operatives working together than 4 Mercs in OWPVP
Now that I agree with. A small team of ops can shut down any class.

But that has always been the case with pvp in any MMO. Why most stealth are glass cannons. Which Opes are not. They can take a beating or escape a beating.

EzioMessi's Avatar


EzioMessi
06.11.2017 , 01:36 PM | #635
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
I do wonder whether this thread is monitored at all at this point. I mean it is getting quite big and there are a lot of questions asked. It would be amazing if people got replies but at this point I am afraid it has gotten too much for them to handle it all. It is likely they'll respond to the questions they see on the last page of the thread if they notice it.
Well at least one post by Keith says they're "reading all the posts" in this thread. I am willing to believe Keith on that honestly, he can't singlehandedly address every concern of every player, but he has addressed quiet a few questions in this thread, and Charles addressed my OWPvP question earlier.

It's just that currently, the answer to a lot of questions is just "We recognize it is a problem, and one of the weekly threads in the future will discuss it". That was the answer for Class Balance (and we got our weekly thread on it), that was the answer for OWPvP and for Ranked rewards (apparently we're getting this weekly thread by "late" Wednesday), and it's certainly the answer for a lot of other things.

I do think they're monitoring this thread, they have shown no signs of ignoring this thread, they just seem to respond to the "hotter" topics first, as well as the easy to answer questions ("will the FP have a storymode" or "Explain how 230 gear by command token purchase will work" kind of questions).

If you were to increase the volume of posters who agree with your suggestions (which I believe pertain to customization options, right?) by tomorrow noon, then you'd have a good chance of attracting dev attention to your concerns.

For whatever its worth, I do agree that they need to make "Sith yellow" eye-colour a thing for every species, because Dark Side corruption looks absurdly ugly.
The Harbinger - The Raider Legacy
Attair - Level 70 Sentinel
If you like my comment, please click my referral link for free goodies for both you and
me: http://www.swtor.com/r/3XbB9h

cagthehack's Avatar


cagthehack
06.11.2017 , 01:40 PM | #636
Quote: Originally Posted by Yezzan View Post

Bottom line is these rewards that you (PvPers) are requesting is not for yourselves, but to lure PvE players to their deaths. Plain and simple. Or are you saying you ( PvPers) need incentives to PvP?

Sound like you can read minds.

What he is saying is that PVP should have the same level of incentives as PVE does. SImple.

Ganking has always been apart of PVP. It will never stop. Anyone who PVPs knows and expects this. So what's the problem? You don't want to get ganked? Don't go in.

Reminds of a time, years ago, I had an argument with a friend who was playing WOW on Blackrock, a pvp server. He was ************ that he was getting ganked. i was like, "then play on a pve server".

EzioMessi's Avatar


EzioMessi
06.11.2017 , 01:41 PM | #637
Quote: Originally Posted by Icykill_ View Post
I disagre. The OWPVP in this game has always favoured stealth classes. I think if it was active you would find stealths ruling the area because
A. They now have complete black out and they can stand on top of you till you have low health or you've blown your CDs and then they can attack.
B. They just have the tactical advantage to wait you out and wear you down.

What works in Arena and classic WZs doesn't always translate to OWPVP. I would be more scared of 2-3 Operatives working together than 4 Mercs in OWPVP
Thing with OWPvP is that you can dynamically change compositions to counter an enemy. If in Ilum we encounter a lot of stealth melees, bring in a sniper or a healer to counterbalance that. For OWPvP you can log onto an alt, pull in mobs from around you, call in support from the rest of the planet, call in guildies, beat them through sheer numbers, and in the case of Iokath, just bring in a gigantic God machine to rain hell on the enemy who's causing you trouble. Use emplaced artillery turrets, instance limits, dynamic allied mob spawning, etc to balance the side that's losing.

So class balancing may be harder for OWPvP, but it presents players better opportunities to balance each individual situation as needed.
The Harbinger - The Raider Legacy
Attair - Level 70 Sentinel
If you like my comment, please click my referral link for free goodies for both you and
me: http://www.swtor.com/r/3XbB9h

cagthehack's Avatar


cagthehack
06.11.2017 , 02:02 PM | #638
There is a side effect of OWPVP that we haven't' discussed and that's community. Nothing brings a community together more than mutual defense. I remember in early WOW, during the [great] TM/SS wars period an attack on TM (or SS) word would go out across the whole game. Players would fly in from everywhere for the fight. yes it brought the servers down a lot. But it was fun.

Or having a huge KOS list. Or ************ about someone on the forums. The game needs drama badly.

EzioMessi's Avatar


EzioMessi
06.11.2017 , 02:21 PM | #639
Quote: Originally Posted by cagthehack View Post
There is a side effect of OWPVP that we haven't' discussed and that's community. Nother bring a community together more than mutual defense. I remember in early WOW, during the [great] TM/SS wars period an attack on TM (or SS) word would go out across the whole game. Players would fly in from everywhere for the fight. yes it brought the servers down a lot. But it was fun.

Or having a huge KOS list. Or ************ about someone on the forums. The game needs drama badly.
Can confirm, back when Jung Ma wasn't a zombie, Outpost Thorazan on Tatooine was the liveliest place to be. Any Imp who dared to gank a lowbie would find the shoe on the other foot, and 25+ Pubs dancing over their corpses. And then 30+ Imps would attack us, then 40+ Pubs would come to help us out, it was a beautiful, beautiful Star War in every sense of that word.

During the Gree Event if some guild dared to win-trade, we'd have dozens of players who would troll them by constantly interrupting their caps and killing them, and we'd have massive Pub vs Imp brawls with Pubs trying to protect other Pubs during their caps, and likewise for Imps, which was made all the more fun with friendly fire.

And every Imp who dared to use the Coruscant glitch to attack us on our home turf severely regretted it and never came back. They would be so thoroughly camped that they'd genuinely feel sorry for ever daring to gank the Coruscanti lowbies.

But all of that changed with the PvP immune instances and 90 CC server transfers.
The Harbinger - The Raider Legacy
Attair - Level 70 Sentinel
If you like my comment, please click my referral link for free goodies for both you and
me: http://www.swtor.com/r/3XbB9h

Endrinhael's Avatar


Endrinhael
06.11.2017 , 02:53 PM | #640
Quote: Originally Posted by EzioMessi View Post
The issue with GSF is that it's like, ENTIRELY different from EVERYTHING we have in the rest of the game. The combat is different, it has 3D depth instead of 2D movement, it has mouse controlled movement and requires smarter maneuvers, positioning and aiming.

The AI for most MMOs is designed in a scripted manner. They set up simple triggers such as health %, timers and positioning, that allow the boss to change its behaviour.

GSF AI would be an entirely different beast. They would basically be designing a new space combat game from the ground up, and the investment for that *may* not be worth it.

I suggest making separate threads that allow you to consolidate the demand for this feature all in one place, here you're gonna be drowned out by others' demands ( the last several pages have been about OWPvP for example). Use a central thread, do informal surveys, and then draw Keith's attention to that thread. Basically give Bioware some vague metric that says "yes if we invest the money it takes to make a brand new space combat game in this game with a decent AI, we'll satisfy so many of our players' demands that it'll be worth it".

You'll also have better luck posting around a time when you saw a recent dev post, otherwise they may not even get around to reading your post in these several pages of demands we have.
I would agree with you on the issue on its different than the rest of the game. That is why I want it opened up to those that feel excluded from it because its PvP only.

On the assessment on the difficulty of programming the PvE scripts in 3d is the sol reason PvE is not included, I strongly disagree because of all the past PvE space games that HAS done it (not to mention JTL from SWG).

I have a few ideas on why they are resisting opening up space to PvE (please dont mention that horrible rails system for player ships. i have hated it from the get go. If I am playing in a ship, "I" have to be controlling the ship, not on some stupid rails!).

What I really would like is them to implement a poll on how many players feel gated from GSF content because it is PvP only. They probably wont because then they would have to recognize the issue instead of avoiding the it like they have been doing since it was first implemented.