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Why did you nerf Fractured Uprising CxP?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Why did you nerf Fractured Uprising CxP?
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Sargrith's Avatar


Sargrith
03.07.2017 , 11:14 PM | #91
Quote: Originally Posted by Severith View Post
Can you link a bad stealther's video? As in, show actual proof?

Proof would only be needed if there was doubt it could be done, do you really doubt it could be? The fact is based on your next line clearly you don't. And why don't you? Because you know it could be and you know a bad stealther can do what someone else well practiced in that chapter could, and still the stealther would be as fast or faster.

You know that the difference is there, we all do. We all know the first time someone runs anything with no idea how to "game" the map the stealther can buzz through as fast or faster then someone who has the map memorized. That to hit the speed of a stealth class a non-stealth one needs to have run the map many times to find the optimal way to avoid as much as possible, if that is possible. Which on all maps is not.

Sargrith's Avatar


Sargrith
03.07.2017 , 11:28 PM | #92
Quote: Originally Posted by IanArgent View Post
Because you actually have to implement the process. The dead simple way to do it is exactly what I said, you put whatever fraction of the intended CXP as kill rewards, averaged across each mob. I can think of an easy way to abuse this for profit, though, in the time it's taken me to type that sentence. The harder way is to put a secondary mission on; kill all (or most, anyway) of the mobs, get the reward fraction due to kills. And then everyone complains that hard-hitting AoE classes are the way to blow through, max reward, min effort. Replace the big, individually weak, pulls with smaller, individually tougher, pulls, and you make Hard CC important, and the game continues.

You can't solve this problem, you can just play whack-a-mole and shove the class balance problem around the table under the tablecloth. The grass will always be greener under some other classes feet.

I said before, stealth classes have always had a minor advantage in that they can ignore most trash mobs - that's been the game for 5 years now. It was way more of an advantage in flashpoints, where you have a lot more trash and a lot more travel distance, compared to a Uprising. 15-30 minutes off a 1 hour flashpoint is a much better deal than 2-5 minutes off a 15 minute Uprising.

Lest I be thought of as arguing for my own benefit, I don't grind CXP for the sake of CXP, I don't like how the Operative/Scoundrel class works, and I'm not all THAT thrilled by the Shadow/Assassin class - I'm just not that fond of melee. I can take or leave stealth, though I'll admit it's nice to be able to skip the odd mob from time to time, I also like the odd spot of cash. Each individual doesn't have a lot, but it adds up.

I just don't see the point of whacking this particular mole.

Nearly every advanced class has a pretty good AoE build. Sure some are a bit better but not crazy better. You can't say the same about having stealth. And before you comment that there shouldn't be build disparity then, come on tank/heal builds lack of dps will sometimes be a huge issue but it's ok because when it is the person and change builds and get by, I do it all the time when it's simply a dps race I change my tank/healer to dps and go. I am saying nearly because I don't know vanguard/pt well enough to be sure they do. Yes sorc dps is low but that's a balance issue hopefully addressed at some point.

Just because something has always been unbalanced isn't really an arguement that it should remain so.

Severith's Avatar


Severith
03.08.2017 , 03:03 AM | #93
Quote: Originally Posted by Sargrith View Post
Proof would only be needed if there was doubt it could be done, do you really doubt it could be? The fact is based on your next line clearly you don't. And why don't you? Because you know it could be and you know a bad stealther can do what someone else well practiced in that chapter could, and still the stealther would be as fast or faster.

You know that the difference is there, we all do. We all know the first time someone runs anything with no idea how to "game" the map the stealther can buzz through as fast or faster then someone who has the map memorized. That to hit the speed of a stealth class a non-stealth one needs to have run the map many times to find the optimal way to avoid as much as possible, if that is possible. Which on all maps is not.
If there is no doubt, if it is so obvious, then it should be very easy to prove. I'm asking you for that proof, and you thus far haven't coughed it up.

For chapter 2, a stealthier can save a good 20-30 seconds, if they stealth at the right moments. That's it. For people who know the maps. If you don't know the maps, then stealthing would save you more time, sure. But we're talking about grinding here. People are gonna learn the maps pretty quick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coury2cUMBw

This is a 6:02 speedrun. Arsenal Merc. No final cutscene or loading screen, but the merc fought two sets of 3 standard enemies she didn't need to fight. Instead of ************ about stealthers, ***** about how easy it is for a merc to face tank bosses better than actual tanks.

Show me a speedrun with a stealther that's significantly lower than that. You can't. I'm saying the difference is trivial at a 20-30 second advantage for a stealthier, if even that. What do you think this "Big Edge" is you keep going on about? Do you think it's a minute? Two minutes? You won't even solidly define what you're griping about.

Show me your proof. Show me a speedrun with a sin or a operative that's 5 minutes or lower for chapter 2. I'm guessing that you can't. I've proven that non stealthers can very quickly do chapter 2 as well. A 20-30 second advantage for stealthers is meaningless to gripe about. Getting people riled up about problems that don't exist are some of the reasons the real problems with SWTOR don't get addressed.

You also completely ignored the speed nerf stealthers are getting in 5.2. Even if this situation was real, it's already becoming a non issue.

You got angry at the assumption that stealth grinding chapters conveyed a huge advantage. And that's probably true for some chapters. But those chapters don't matter. When grinding over and over, only the fastest chapters matter. The "huge" advantage that got you so triggered on doesn't exist.

Severith's Avatar


Severith
03.08.2017 , 03:08 AM | #94
Quote: Originally Posted by Quraswren View Post
You got any links to this? So far I'm coming up with no other class than stealthier that can pull it off in that short amount of time? I can't find anyone I know in game that can currently pull it off nor does any searches pull it up for me.

Even the few Sentinel videos use their limited stealth to pull on 7min times or lower.
In case you missed it from my above post.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coury2cUMBw

Danery's Avatar


Danery
03.08.2017 , 07:03 AM | #95
Quote: Originally Posted by Sargrith View Post
So are you arguing that a non-stealth class can do any chapter faster then a stealth one, not as fast but any faster? I don't see how. If a non-stealther can do it in 7 I am feeling good about a stealther doing it as fast or faster and with less work or effort.

Either way granting cxp based on percentage of mobs killed still evens things out. High stealth scan removes the benefit of stealth and hurts their ability to get opening back attacks, stealth stuns and the like. This method leaves them all those tools and allows them to decide to run for speed or max cxp, it gives options instead of taking them away.
In chapter 2, on my Merc I am able to skip almost every single mob that I can skip on my stealther. There are only maybe 2 mobs that I can skip with my stealther that I cannot skip with my non-stealther.
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Sargrith's Avatar


Sargrith
03.08.2017 , 07:46 AM | #96
Quote: Originally Posted by Severith View Post
If there is no doubt, if it is so obvious, then it should be very easy to prove. I'm asking you for that proof, and you thus far haven't coughed it up.

For chapter 2, a stealthier can save a good 20-30 seconds, if they stealth at the right moments. That's it. For people who know the maps. If you don't know the maps, then stealthing would save you more time, sure. But we're talking about grinding here. People are gonna learn the maps pretty quick.
So you are demanding proof it can be done in one sentence than acknowledging it is so in the next. Sorry clearly it would be a waste of time to prove what you already know to be, what we all know to be.

I think your biggest fear is if they actually required you to clear the map using edge running and such would become less advantageous. It would hurt your method of beating the game is all. Because those who do as the video did would be in the same boat as the stealther, yes they could complete it quickly but they would also loose the cxp for doing it that way.

Your looking at this only from a grinding point of veiw. And there is validity in that but it also ignores the ease of learning and doing it the first couple times while learning the map, or even just doing it as part of more normal play styles.

Making the change to balance the game would do just that. It would be the same for the stealther as the non-stealther, balanced. Effort of one would more equal the effort of the others for the same reward. There is nothing bad about that.

Quraswren's Avatar


Quraswren
03.08.2017 , 09:05 AM | #97
Quote: Originally Posted by Severith View Post
In case you missed it from my above post.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coury2cUMBw
I didn't miss it. Stealth made a difference as one would think it does. I also noticed it was run on the empire side. A slight bit of an easier run because of how it's designed. Another issue iwth risk vs reward when you even compare an empire run vs republic.

Choosing extra talents to make their limited stealth better makes a difference in speed runs and the result is if we are going to base things on risk vs reward. Stealthers do not have the same risk and should not gain the same rewards if bw plans to change things based on the risk vs reward model.

Base it on the number of mobs killed (even if that doesn't mean all mobs) then the risk vs reward becomes a large part more even across the board of classes and gamers. Wouldn't matter what class you have, even if you had a better AOE than others, as you are still killing the same mobs. Skip those mobs, complete it faster sure, but miss out on some CXP.

If the goal is to base it on risk vs reward. Stealthers should be held accountable to the same standard.

Quote: Originally Posted by Danery View Post
In chapter 2, on my Merc I am able to skip almost every single mob that I can skip on my stealther. There are only maybe 2 mobs that I can skip with my stealther that I cannot skip with my non-stealther.
Empire does have it a bit easier by design vs republic from what I can tell even for non-stealthers. If you are republic there are at least 4 packs you cannot skip unless you can stealth not including the minibosses and final boss.
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Zasszz's Avatar


Zasszz
03.08.2017 , 10:14 AM | #98
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post

Here is what happened. This change is intended, it just wasn't supposed to happen until 5.2. That is the reason it was missed in the patch notes.
Odd that all latest nerfs "accidently" didnt make it into patch notes. Its like you are trying to hide something and take the community for fools.

Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
I will work on getting it added to patch notes and I apologize for it being missed. It is our goal that CXP gains are based on time, difficulty, and group size, with that in mind I will let you know of any future changes which are planned.
Maybe let us know BEFORE a patch like several days BEFORE, not a week AFTER you tried to hide it by using the old accidental oversight excuse. You literally have no credibility left here.
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LordAppius's Avatar


LordAppius
03.08.2017 , 10:26 AM | #99
Farmer chapter 2 from Kofte on master, quickest way and most rewarding or do hammer station

EricMusco's Avatar


EricMusco
03.08.2017 , 10:27 AM | #100 Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread. Next  
Hey folks,

I talked with the team to get the scope of what Mission rewards are changing with 5.2. As some of you guessed in the thread, the following Missions are also having their CXP values reduced:
  • KOTFE - Chapter 1
  • KOTFE - Chapter 2
Those two along with Fractured are the only Mission rewards that are seeing major changes in 5.2. However, there are other Missions which are receiving minor tweaks as well. Just to set an expectation, beyond 5.2 we will continue to make Mission reward adjustments based on time spent vs reward. Our goal is quite simple, if you play a type of content, you should receive fairly consistent rewards across that content, difficulty, based on time spent.

Example: If you want to play story mode Uprisings, we want all Uprisings to give you relatively the same reward for the time you spend playing them. If an Uprising takes 5 minutes, it should give around 1/5th the reward of one that takes 25 minutes. Obviously that won't be exact, but you get the idea.

If I learn of any other CXP changes happening in 5.2 (or in the future) I will pass them on. Thanks everyone.

-eric
Eric Musco | Community Manager
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