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Merc super cancer 5.0!!!!!!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Merc super cancer 5.0!!!!!!

Severith's Avatar


Severith
12.11.2016 , 04:38 AM | #151
Quote: Originally Posted by Nightkin View Post
No, the problem is that ability is enough to win against YOU, you have proven to be unable to adapt to the situation, End of story
You're the one saying it's not overpowered. So it's on you to solve the puzzle here. Tell us how a veng jugg deals with it. Burning all your defensive cooldowns while the merc attacks you for 12 seconds loses you the fight. Doing nothing loses the fight. Trying to run away against a 30m dpser isn't going to work. Breaking line of sight is entirely situational.

Even though I proved you didn't understand the mechanics, you still think you've got the answers then. Tell me then what the answer is.

Nightkin's Avatar


Nightkin
12.11.2016 , 05:01 AM | #152
If you had even an ounce of experience you could come up with a few suggestions yourself, however since that is obviously asking a lot...i will comply.
Lets just start by saying the obvious, you cannot really say how a pvp fight will progress. This is not Chess, the mechanics however from all classes have it's strenghts and its weaknessess. Pardon my spelling, english is not my first language.

You mentioned mercs trauma regulator utility, that is tied to energy shield. While the shield is up the merc takes -25% dmg and any direct hit heals him/her for 5% of max health.

I mentioned you could simply awe the merc wich would negate the whole thing. You didnt like that at all cause your own dots might break awe. Fair enough, that could happen.
Then Force choke him? The initial dmg from FC might give the merc a 5% health boost at the end of the shield but the following dot ticks wont. Thus the merc cannot dps you while you intelligently move away and LOS him until the shield is down.

But if you dont like that, you could maybe force push the merc away, making him loose valuable time up time on the shield and valuable dps time. When he gets back up you already moved the other way, out of range until bubble runs out. Or failing that, you could simply counter the last few seconds of his defensive cooldown by popping saber reflect, wich does not give the merc any self healing. Again, its countered.

This can go on and on but im not inclined to write a bible for someone barely able to read about his own abilites.
Whaaaaambulance at your service

Nightkin's Avatar


Nightkin
12.11.2016 , 05:11 AM | #153
We can probably agree on a couple of things;
Im arrogant, mean even. I have a lousy temper and i might even be a tad too offensive. Neither of these things are considered nice.

So im all that and more, im also imaginative enough to figure out how to counter stuff in PvP.
I still consider this to be a Learn to play issue in a pond filled with small fish.
Whaaaaambulance at your service

Severith's Avatar


Severith
12.11.2016 , 06:44 AM | #154
Quote: Originally Posted by Nightkin View Post
If you had even an ounce of experience you could come up with a few suggestions yourself, however since that is obviously asking a lot...i will comply.
Lets just start by saying the obvious, you cannot really say how a pvp fight will progress. This is not Chess, the mechanics however from all classes have it's strenghts and its weaknessess. Pardon my spelling, english is not my first language.

You mentioned mercs trauma regulator utility, that is tied to energy shield. While the shield is up the merc takes -25% dmg and any direct hit heals him/her for 5% of max health.

I mentioned you could simply awe the merc wich would negate the whole thing. You didnt like that at all cause your own dots might break awe. Fair enough, that could happen.
Then Force choke him? The initial dmg from FC might give the merc a 5% health boost at the end of the shield but the following dot ticks wont. Thus the merc cannot dps you while you intelligently move away and LOS him until the shield is down.

But if you dont like that, you could maybe force push the merc away, making him loose valuable time up time on the shield and valuable dps time. When he gets back up you already moved the other way, out of range until bubble runs out. Or failing that, you could simply counter the last few seconds of his defensive cooldown by popping saber reflect, wich does not give the merc any self healing. Again, its countered.

This can go on and on but im not inclined to write a bible for someone barely able to read about his own abilites.
Lots of stuff wrong with your post, lets go through it one by one. First a little fact about all of your ideas:

All of your solutions center on the veng jugg running away. If you can't see how that makes it the most unbalanced situation then your perspective isn't healthy. All because the merc spent 1 ability point. When the second point is spent, Energy shield goes from a 3 min cooldown to a 1 min cooldown for all practical purposes. (Energy Rebounder)

As a veng Jugg, your dots will break Intimidating Roar (Awe). Not maybe. It's unusable against an opponent who you've hit with your primary abilities.

Using line of sight as a basis for class balance is stupid, because line of sight is entirely situational. Unless a class comes with an ability to create a pillar they can place and run around, it's not a sound argument, because both players can use line of sight during the fight. It's a null argument. Ranged classes are much better at using LOS tactics than melee classes to begin with, so if there is LOS breaking opportunities, it's better for the ranged classes, especially those with off healing capabilities.

Moving away out of range from a merc as a veng jugg isn't going to work. You're going to be in melee (hopefully) when fighting. That means 4 meters or less from the merc. A veng jugg can move about 5 meters in a second, when they're not slowed. (Even as a veng jugg, you're constantly slowed and rooted in pvp.) So lets do the math.

A force push gives you 10 meters between you and the target and stuns for 2 seconds. If you're 4 meters away, and you push them ten meters, and then move away before he attacks, you're still going to be within range even in the most optimal situation. You've wasted your push. (10+4+10=24 meters) Oh, and you've healed him, and given a range dps even more range. Force push isn't going to save you. You've used a 1 min cd, to negate 2 seconds of their 12 second, 1 min cooldown. You've also raised his resolve bar.

A force choke stuns for 4 seconds. You're still going to be in range after the stun ends. (4+20=24) So it's almost the exact same situation. You've healed him, you've raised his resolve bar, and you've negated 4 seconds of his 12 second, 1 min cooldown. You're still in range of his abilities, and you're a melee who is 24 meters from his target. Force choke doesn't help the situation.

Saber reflect doesn't help that much either. Why? Because the merc doesn't need to deal single target damage to you to generate resources. He also has really good aoe, far superior to a jugg. A good merc already switches to aoe when a jugg reflect comes up.

Even if everything you said was good advice (and it wasn't) the veng jugg would have to burn 3 1 minute dcd to deal with the 1 dcd (which in practical terms is now 1 minute due to the utility) that the merc has. Even if you force choked
at 4 meters, ran back to 10 meters to force push, ran away and hit saber reflect, it still doesn't cover the 12 seconds, it still hasn't protected you from the damage, you've still healed the merc for 10%, and you still haven't make any resource generation to use for when the shield goes down.

While you're standing there taking aoe while your saber reflect does nothing, you're gonna get electroneted and you'll be 24 meters away looking like an idiot.

Please do go on and on. All of your solutions are going to involve using multiple dcd, at the end of which the merc will be healed, the jugg will be out of melee range, the merc will have recovered resources, and the jugg will have not gained any rage or the merc gained a huge amount of health. Go ahead and offer a solution that doesn't put the jugg at a further disadvantage. I really would love to hear it.

You realize you can't win the shield game right? Even if you can burst them down, a experienced merc is going to right click their energy shield, canceling it before they die and getting the heal. They don't have to wait the 12 seconds.

All of this because a merc spent 1 utility point. It's overpowered, you know it, I know it, the community knows it.

Jherad's Avatar


Jherad
12.11.2016 , 06:50 AM | #155
As a slight aside, are you able to 1v1 *decent* dps operatives?

Because not being funny, while I agree you might not have the tools to kill good merc dps now (as veng/vigi), I'm pretty sure you can't do it with operatives either (as evidenced by every dueling tourny ever). That's pretty much the strength of a healing DPS class over a zero-burst DPS class. A model that mercs were to an extent previously excluded from, because merc self heals sucked arse (we were usually outhealed by Juggs heh).
Zacharïah - Commando / Chasso, Aargh - Merc
The Twinkletoes Legacy
Zachariah's Merc/Mando PvP Guides
2.4 is the PvP Patch! ... J/K, Removing RWZs trolololol

Nightkin's Avatar


Nightkin
12.11.2016 , 06:59 AM | #156
Quote: Originally Posted by Severith View Post
Lots of stuff wrong with your post, lets go through it one by one. First a little fact about all of your ideas:

All of your solutions center on the veng jugg running away. If you can't see how that makes it the most unbalanced situation then your perspective isn't healthy. All because the merc spent 1 ability point. When the second point is spent, Energy shield goes from a 3 min cooldown to a 1 min cooldown for all practical purposes. (Energy Rebounder)

As a veng Jugg, your dots will break Intimidating Roar (Awe). Not maybe. It's unusable against an opponent who you've hit with your primary abilities.

Using line of sight as a basis for class balance is stupid, because line of sight is entirely situational. Unless a class comes with an ability to create a pillar they can place and run around, it's not a sound argument, because both players can use line of sight during the fight. It's a null argument. Ranged classes are much better at using LOS tactics than melee classes to begin with, so if there is LOS breaking opportunities, it's better for the ranged classes, especially those with off healing capabilities.

Moving away out of range from a merc as a veng jugg isn't going to work. You're going to be in melee (hopefully) when fighting. That means 4 meters or less from the merc. A veng jugg can move about 5 meters in a second, when they're not slowed. (Even as a veng jugg, you're constantly slowed and rooted in pvp.) So lets do the math.

A force push gives you 10 meters between you and the target and stuns for 2 seconds. If you're 4 meters away, and you push them ten meters, and then move away before he attacks, you're still going to be within range even in the most optimal situation. You've wasted your push. (10+4+10=24 meters) Oh, and you've healed him, and given a range dps even more range. Force push isn't going to save you. You've used a 1 min cd, to negate 2 seconds of their 12 second, 1 min cooldown. You've also raised his resolve bar.

A force choke stuns for 4 seconds. You're still going to be in range after the stun ends. (4+20=24) So it's almost the exact same situation. You've healed him, you've raised his resolve bar, and you've negated 4 seconds of his 12 second, 1 min cooldown. You're still in range of his abilities, and you're a melee who is 24 meters from his target. Force choke doesn't help the situation.

Saber reflect doesn't help that much either. Why? Because the merc doesn't need to deal single target damage to you to generate resources. He also has really good aoe, far superior to a jugg. A good merc already switches to aoe when a jugg reflect comes up.

Even if everything you said was good advice (and it wasn't) the veng jugg would have to burn 3 1 minute dcd to deal with the 1 dcd (which in practical terms is now 1 minute due to the utility) that the merc has. Even if you force choked
at 4 meters, ran back to 10 meters to force push, ran away and hit saber reflect, it still doesn't cover the 12 seconds, it still hasn't protected you from the damage, you've still healed the merc for 10%, and you still haven't make any resource generation to use for when the shield goes down.

While you're standing there taking aoe while your saber reflect does nothing, you're gonna get electroneted and you'll be 24 meters away looking like an idiot.

Please do go on and on. All of your solutions are going to involve using multiple dcd, at the end of which the merc will be healed, the jugg will be out of melee range, the merc will have recovered resources, and the jugg will have not gained any rage or the merc gained a huge amount of health. Go ahead and offer a solution that doesn't put the jugg at a further disadvantage. I really would love to hear it.

You realize you can't win the shield game right? Even if you can burst them down, a experienced merc is going to right click their energy shield, canceling it before they die and getting the heal. They don't have to wait the 12 seconds.

All of this because a merc spent 1 utility point. It's overpowered, you know it, I know it, the community knows it.
I dont agree at all.
You base all your "facts" on one thing; Making a quick run away is bad.
But everyone else has to do it when you pop your self heal.
Hitting you is bad, so we run away for a moment or CC you if possible, same as i suggested to be used against a merc.
But ....no you cannot be asked to do the same, oh the shame of it! RAWR me mighty juggernoob, i never flee.
You could simply pop your little jumpwavesaber move, i dont honestly remember the name and be out of range no problem. But asking you to adapt is obviously asking a bit much. You made your stand and while brave, it was weaksauce and poor.

Byebye
Whaaaaambulance at your service

Hiro_Wildfire's Avatar


Hiro_Wildfire
12.11.2016 , 06:59 AM | #157
Quote: Originally Posted by Severith View Post
All of this because a merc spent 1 utility point. It's overpowered, you know it, I know it, the community knows it.
Add on top of that the energy rebounder and the shield comes of cooldown far, far, far quicker than usual.

Severith's Avatar


Severith
12.11.2016 , 07:06 AM | #158
Quote: Originally Posted by Nightkin View Post
I dont agree at all.
You base all your "facts" on one thing; Making a quick run away is bad.
But everyone else has to do it when you pop your self heal.
Hitting you is bad, so we run away for a moment or CC you if possible, same as i suggested to be used against a merc.
But ....no you cannot be asked to do the same, oh the shame of it! RAWR me mighty juggernoob, i never flee.
You could simply pop your little jumpwavesaber move, i dont honestly remember the name and be out of range no problem. But asking you to adapt is obviously asking a bit much. You made your stand and while brave, it was weaksauce and poor.

Byebye
So, you can't offer a solution to an energy shield that doesn't put the jugg at a further disadvantage. You don't need to hit a jugg for resource generation unless you're a jugg or a mara. You'll ignore the difference between a reactive self heal on a melee, who gets shut down due to roots and slows, vs a 30m ranged dpser with a similar self heal who doesn't get shut down with roots and slows. You don't know or bother to know the names of moves, or the mechanics of how things actually work.

You've added nothing but your ego to this whole debate. Yeah. Bye bye.

Nightkin's Avatar


Nightkin
12.11.2016 , 07:15 AM | #159
Quote: Originally Posted by Severith View Post
So, you can't offer a solution to an energy shield that doesn't put the jugg at a further disadvantage. You don't need to hit a jugg for resource generation unless you're a jugg or a mara. You'll ignore the difference between a reactive self heal on a melee, who gets shut down due to roots and slows, vs a 30m ranged dpser with a similar self heal who doesn't get shut down with roots and slows. You don't know or bother to know the names of moves, or the mechanics of how things actually work.

You've added nothing but your ego to this whole debate. Yeah. Bye bye.
*Sigh and yawn*

How does a veng jugg counter the self healing shield of the merc without healing him and still do dmg to the merc during the activation time? Mm?
It's so simple, i was actually waiting for you to say it but looo and behold, you couldnt figure it out.

Lets look at the skill descriptions.

Responsive Safeguards: New ability exclusive to Mercenaries which absorbs all single target damage, reflects 50% of it, and heals you for 5% of your health each time an attack is absorbed.

Secondly Trauma Regulators: While Energy Shield is active, you generate a stack of Trauma Regulators each time you receive direct damage. Stacks up to 15 times. When Energy Shield expires, each stack of Trauma Regulators instantly heals you for 5% of your maximum health.

WOW, now that is very interesting!
Do you get it yet?
You can have a 100% uptime on your dps and not cause any self healing at all on the merc.
Now go sit in your noob corner and be ashamed.
Whaaaaambulance at your service

Nightkin's Avatar


Nightkin
12.11.2016 , 07:18 AM | #160
Are we done now? I tire of teaching YOU how to play YOUR class. This isnt kindergarden, go figure something out for yourself.
Whaaaaambulance at your service