What about that dark Jessa or Broonmark?

Dark Jaessa is obsessed with you. She never insults you as far as I re-call. Broonmark you fight and then he grovels at your feet. Despite that one of the biggest criticisms is not being able to kill him in the class story quests. People questioned the same thing on skadge etc. Originally you were able to but people whined that they had less companions than others so they made it so you couldn't kill your companions. During beta everyone was capable of being killed.

Dark Jaessa is obsessed with you. She never insults you as far as I re-call. Broonmark you fight and then he grovels at your feet. Despite that one of the biggest criticisms is not being able to kill him in the class story quests. People questioned the same thing on skadge etc. Originally you were able to but people whined that they had less companions than others so they made it so you couldn't kill your companions. During beta everyone was capable of being killed.

That would have been no problem if all companions could have healed do damage and be tanks nobody would have really complained.

Also Khem Vael insults you quite a lot also if you play a SI. But to be fair I can not recall any non companion npc that can insult you and get away with it besides well your sith master and in case of non force user imperial class every sith you meet.

I mean killing Jaessa because she attacks you I assumed she was dark because your SW is dark.

You can kill people for less throughout the Sith storyline.

And it was stupid then, just as it would be stupid now. I mean seriously. For example: Why doesn't Baras fry your a*s with some lightening for a bit after you kill his slave that greets you at Dromund Kaas? You just destroyed your masters property for literally no reason. There is no reason you should get away with this, without at least some force ligtning in your stupid evil face.

And it was stupid then, just as it would be stupid now. I mean seriously. For example: Why doesn't Baras fry your a*s with some lightening for a bit after you kill his slave that greets you at Dromund Kaas? You just destroyed your masters property for literally no reason. There is no reason you should get away with this, without at least some force ligtning in your stupid evil face.

I don't think I killed that guy even on my Dark 5 character. That's not the point. My character is a Sith, he has an entire list of accomplishments, accolades, and feats. If someone is going to walk up to him, insult him, berate him, and tell him "Oh that person you're recruiting will always be mine. You're merely borrowing him." he's going to put him in his place. Period. At the very least my Sith should be able to attempt beating his face in to show him exactly who he's dealing with. I mean, it's what just about any Sith would do. Dooku is more tame than most and I think this guy would even try his patience. Though, to be fair, Dooku would probably just send someone like Ventress to do it. Either way he'd make some effort to have him killed.

I don't think I killed that guy even on my Dark 5 character. That's not the point. My character is a Sith, he has an entire list of accomplishments, accolades, and feats. If someone is going to walk up to him, insult him, berate him, and tell him "Oh that person you're recruiting will always be mine. You're merely borrowing him." he's going to put him in his place. Period. At the very least my Sith should be able to attempt beating his face in to show him exactly who he's dealing with. I mean, it's what just about any Sith would do. Dooku is more tame than most and I think this guy would even try his patience. Though, to be fair, Dooku would probably just send someone like Ventress to do it. Either way he'd make some effort to have him killed.

My Sith just couldn't muster interest in who owned Guss.

A random guy telling me he owns a piece of trash doesn't bother me, it's a piece of trash.

Like I said, Star Wars needs to grow up. It's long past due. One of the greatest examples of a creator who gets it is J.K. Rowling, because as her audience grew up, she introduced greater subtlety and even outright subverted a lot of the childish notions that were present in the earlier Potter books.

 

There's still plenty of room for simplistic good vs evil stories, especially for younglings discovering the franchise for the first time, but if you want to keep fans as they mature, then you need to provide a more subtle and grounded examination of the whole goodies and baddies thing.

 

The people who would fight against that the hardest are likely the ones who never grew up.

I did like how Dumbledore and Snape and James Potter gained depth.

The rare reversal where the critical obituary of the fallen mentor was accurate.

That Snape defected after getting his object of affection killed.

And that James Potter had some Draco traits as a stuident.

These things are part of what make people, well... people.

All of this arguing about light and dark, smart or dumb decision, have nothing to do with the OP's point. In this game, you've traditionally been able to make decisions where you attack people who insult you or who even look at you wrong. Once in a while, that goes badly for you.

This could have been an opportunity to show the guy's power. You try to attack him and he knocks you on your ***. It would have made the hints of him being powerful more than somebody's "force sense" word and made you rethink who the heck you're actually dealing with.

Sure, it might have sucked a bit too to get knocked out, but I still think it'd be better than not including the kind of option that they've given in most other scenarios of a similar nature. At a certain point, it's almost like they're trying to annoy us. First, they do this massive build of how amazingly powerful our character is. Then there are moments like this, where despite supposedly being one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy, you don't have the option to even try to put this mysterious pseudo-Jedi in his place.

It wouldn't have been that hard to have him make your head spin and then you have a brief conversation where you're kinda like, "Who the **** are you that you can do this to me?" And then he can drop some hint about who he is, making it so that there's a payoff even though you lose.

Like I said, Star Wars needs to grow up. It's long past due.

Oh whatever. Star Wars is grown up in plenty of ways. Have you seen that mission near the beginning on Hutta? One of the first missions in the game if you're playing BH or IA. Not exactly a mission for kids, considering the choice you can make.

Also, there are plenty of characters in the class stories who show themselves to be much more than a caricature. Without going into spoilery detail, Nomen Karr comes to mind. As does Harron Tavus.

The moral system having some childish choices is, and has always been, fantasy indulgence to me. This is a game, not RL and not even a book. You're RPing a character who is not you and mad killer wizards with a lot of power and a ****ed up moral system have been part of SW from the beginning.

The bottom line is, any time you don't add certain types of decisions that have formerly been in the game, people are going to notice because there are people whose character identities revolve around playing out a scripted role. I'm sure many would love to play a "mature, human character," but the fact is, moral choice RPGs are just not built that way. The whole selling point is the moral conundrums and you can only write so much nuance while including decisions that are contrasted between brutality and sacrifice.

The day a game like this "grows up" in the way you seem to be imagining is the day it's no longer a moral choice RPG. At that point, I'm not sure what you'd even call it. Moral themes are a staple of RPGs, even in tabletops games, as far as I can tell. The only real difference with games like these is the lack of neutral-themed choices, but that's a matter of "it would be nice if more grayish choices were added," not "we need to remove the stuff that I don't find pleasant."

I think hiding base brutality does no one any favors. I've had all kinds of visceral emotional experiences playing such characters and usually along the lines of, "Holy ****, my character actually did that." Exploring base brutality through a game is a good way for people to understand it better on an emotional level, without doing violent or cruel things in RL. It's also just a nice way to let off steam sometimes. It's a fantasy, not a script for RL.

Oh whatever. Star Wars is grown up in plenty of ways. Have you seen that mission near the beginning on Hutta? One of the first missions in the game if you're playing BH or IA. Not exactly a mission for kids, considering the choice you can make.

 

Also, there are plenty of characters in the class stories who show themselves to be much more than a caricature. Without going into spoilery detail, Nomen Karr comes to mind. As does Harron Tavus.

 

The moral system having some childish choices is, and has always been, fantasy indulgence to me. This is a game, not RL and not even a book. You're RPing a character who is not you and mad killer wizards with a lot of power and a ****ed up moral system have been part of SW from the beginning.

 

The bottom line is, any time you don't add certain types of decisions that have formerly been in the game, people are going to notice because there are people whose character identities revolve around playing out a scripted role. I'm sure many would love to play a "mature, human character," but the fact is, moral choice RPGs are just not built that way. The whole selling point is the moral conundrums and you can only write so much nuance while including decisions that are contrasted between brutality and sacrifice.

 

The day a game like this "grows up" in the way you seem to be imagining is the day it's no longer a moral choice RPG. At that point, I'm not sure what you'd even call it. Moral themes are a staple of RPGs, even in tabletops games, as far as I can tell. The only real difference with games like these is the lack of neutral-themed choices, but that's a matter of "it would be nice if more grayish choices were added," not "we need to remove the stuff that I don't find pleasant."

 

I think hiding base brutality does no one any favors. I've had all kinds of visceral emotional experiences playing such characters and usually along the lines of, "Holy ****, my character actually did that." Exploring base brutality through a game is a good way for people to understand it better on an emotional level, without doing violent or cruel things in RL. It's also just a nice way to let off steam sometimes. It's a fantasy, not a script for RL.

To play devil's advocate check World of Darkness for a game that prides itself on being morally grey. Where trying to uphold the moral high ground is usually a losing prospect that will eventually lead to death or at the very least ruin. A game where, with the right storyteller, you can start with a moral character and find yourself surprised a few months later how much your character has fallen and adjusted his personality in order to continue to function and survive. It's a great table top system but it isn't compatible with star wars. I think Zanya likes the idea behind star wars but doesn't like the reality of it.

Also to Red's prior post? EXACTLY. Punish us for our choices! Like Koth leaving but have more impact behind our choices. Allow more choices and more impacts. Allow me to kill Arcann. It doesn't matter if someone considers it "psychotic" (though at this point it's justified), maybe punish our character in the story somehow for it where if we kept him maybe another companion wouldn't die. A good example even though it plays no different in the story? Refusing the power the first time vs arcann and it leads to a hole in the stomach. This is the example of choices.

I see the original posters point. People talk to you like something they stepped in occasionally, and they get away with it. You don't even get a "Silence, or die!" option on the wheel.

And folks saying about Sith being logical? Or sensible? They are people who are literally fueled by passion, there is no logic in passion. There is nothing logical about being a Sith, if somebody tests your patience to the point where you become mad at them, then the end result is quite usually death of the person testing you.

Darth Vader choked Padme, the love of his life.

He tortured princess Leia without a care.

He also nearly killed one of the moffs on the death star in episode 4 for daring to rebuke Vader's methods.

He just stood there and allowed Tarkin to destroy an entire world of people.

He killed Admiral Ozzel just because the rebels detected them

He killed captain Needa for failing to catch the millennium falcon

He totally screwed over Lando Calrissian in their deal

He maimed his own son.

In Empire and Hope, Vader was blinking ruthless! And Vader was one of the more sensible and thinking sith! I mean, killing somebody for questioning your methods? Yeah, had Tarkin not intervened that guy would have been a corpse. So when people want their Sith to be able to maim people or at the very least choke or zap them a little that'd be something.

Most Sith are not calm and able to detach themselves from abuse, all abuse does is fuel their power and when their power is fueled they unleash it. Killing or fighting the guy in this quest is a VERY sith thing to do.

Sidious seems to keep his **** together.

Only because he barely interacts with anyone else. The only one who usually sees him in person is Vader but you can bet on it that if he walked by a stormtrooper and they said something like "move out of the way old man." that storm trooper isn't going to be around for much longer.

Only because he barely interacts with anyone else. The only one who usually sees him in person is Vader but you can bet on it that if he walked by a stormtrooper and they said something like "move out of the way old man." that storm trooper isn't going to be around for much longer.

But that stormtrooper would be under Sidious command and therefore obviously shouldn't be allowed to disrespect his emporer. On the contrary Sidious never exploded into fits of murderous rage whenever someone not directly working for him talked back to him during the prequel area.

But that stormtrooper would be under Sidious command and therefore obviously shouldn't be allowed to disrespect his emporer. On the contrary Sidious never exploded into fits of murderous rage whenever someone not directly working for him talked back to him during the prequel area.

At the time he couldn't afford to. Though, those that disliked him and showed dissent towards him did have a tendency to have.. accidents.

But that stormtrooper would be under Sidious command and therefore obviously shouldn't be allowed to disrespect his emporer. On the contrary Sidious never exploded into fits of murderous rage whenever someone not directly working for him talked back to him during the prequel area.

Sidious was both logical and passionate.

He was passionate in his hate and lust for power, and logical in his methods.

Reason is the vehicle that gets you to your destination, passion is why you're trying to get there.

Many Sith let their passionate override their logic and ironically fail to acquire their desires.

Sidious was not most Sith.

Sidious is what I would describe as introverted fury. He was cunning, he had an objective and he was out to accomplish it. Once he became Emperor he didn't hide anything anymore.

But lets not discount that Sidious was a NASTY piece of work. Some prominent examples include;

After finding Vader's mutilated body on mustafar, Sidious debated just leaving him there to die but took him back because Vader was still very powerful despite the injuries.

When Vader was recovered to Coruscant the procedure to put him in the suit was done with absolutely no painkillers at all so Vader was in agony having the procedure done.

Fast forward to episode 6 and he toys with luke skywalker on the death star 2, then he casually inflicts horrendous pain on him with Force Lightning, before then deciding to kill him. Sidious had the power to one or two shot Luke if he wanted but instead he wanted Luke to suffer first.

So Sith who use the Dark Side have real penchant for inflicting pain and misery its what they do.

To play devil's advocate check World of Darkness for a game that prides itself on being morally grey. Where trying to uphold the moral high ground is usually a losing prospect that will eventually lead to death or at the very least ruin. A game where, with the right storyteller, you can start with a moral character and find yourself surprised a few months later how much your character has fallen and adjusted his personality in order to continue to function and survive. It's a great table top system but it isn't compatible with star wars. I think Zanya likes the idea behind star wars but doesn't like the reality of it.

Honestly I think the whole WoD thing is hardly any more mature than what some people think of as Star Wars, it's just black and gray instead of black and white, and tends to be just as restrictive and reductive. There are plenty of lawful-good paragons even in this often ugly world we live in, just as there are complete monsters and everything in-between. It's the attempt to gatekeep that I take issue with, kinda like people who say any mythos story where the humans win isn't legit, despite Lovecraft himself writing stories where they did just that.

Honestly I think the whole WoD thing is hardly any more mature than what some people think of as Star Wars, it's just black and gray instead of black and white, and tends to be just as restrictive and reductive. There are plenty of lawful-good paragons even in this often ugly world we live in, just as there are complete monsters and everything in-between. It's the attempt to gatekeep that I take issue with, kinda like people who say any mythos story where the humans win isn't legit, despite Lovecraft himself writing stories where they did just that.

I disagree. I mean, you can have good characters in the game. Humanity 10 is a thing. It's just nearly impossible to maintain. That doesn't mean you can't strive for it nor does it mean you can't have npcs that are that high. I mean, in WOD terms you start with a humanity of 7. Seven is considered normal. Seven is considered good. Someone at seven may commit selfish actions from time to time but at the same time they'll do what they can to help someone even if it means calling the cops or taking them to the hospital. I've had players manage to keep at a seven or six (though for players going above that is exceedingly hard.) it's just rare. Rarer so because player characters take the front and center stage and unlike in most rpgs you don't ever get to the point where you go "Oh, lol. It's just a knife." you're always a good dice roll for even a simple weapon putting you under. It's just a different type of game.

Actually, now that I've had a minute to think about it, Issac is probably Revan

.assuming you are not joking unlikely

Has anyone considered since the name are so similar that Isaac could be actually Izax?

Now that's an interesting theory. I mean, it sounds ridiculous on the surface, a literal God just chillin' on Nar Shadaa having a washout jedi fetch him booze, but then you think he could always be something akin to Vitiate, but even older, but who just decided that the whole "TREMBLE BEFORE MY MIGHT!" gig wasn't his thing and just went into a quiet retirement).

Has anyone considered since the name are so similar that Isaac could be actually Izax?

I thought of that, especially after the Force Alliance advisor mentioned how powerful he was, and it felt like he was watching her back through her own vision