The problem with Sorcs/Sages.

I guess you got killed one too many times by a Sorc/Sage huh?

I don't even know why I look at these threads, they are all pathetic and laughable

Between playing a Sage myself, and fighting against Sorcerers, I agree with most of your post -- particularly the stacking issue.

There are several reasons why Consulars and Inquisitors stack so well. One of them is the absence of a meaningful diminishing returns mechanic. The Resolve bar does nothing to prevent stacking multiple CC's of the same type, which is one of the reasons to have a DR mechanic in the first place. Currently you can chain-whirlwind your way to victory.

Then there's the lack of synergy buffs. You don't group with another class and think "yay, now I get 5% increased alacrity" or something. Every class is pretty much equally effective regardless of the other classes that are in the group. So overall, where you would expect the team with a variety to have an advantage, it becomes a matter of stacking the single most powerful/useful class.

Another issue is that there is VERY LITTLE in the Sage/Sorcerer healing tree that actually buffs healing output. The healing talents all revolve around synergy and sustainability, neither of which matter very much in PVP. So a non-healing specced Sage or Sorcerer is still a fully capable healer, they're just a fully capable healer with 3 healing buttons instead of 6. And I doubt they're missing our AOE heal or our HoT very much -- especially since they have easy access to the Force Armor/Static Barrier talents. All this on top of some pretty impressive damage, utility, and crowd-control.

Several times I've done matches as a fully specced healer, and done over 250k healing, with my groupmates doing just as much damage -- but we've lost to teams with 5 inquisitors who were doing 50k damage and 50k healing a piece. All you need to do is stack the class, and everyone can keep themselves alive, while also providing duplicates of the best crowd control and utility abilities currently in the game (the AOE knockback & friendly pull are ridiculously useful in Huttball).

Aww look the sorc is pissed about his incoming nerf.

Between playing a Sage myself, and fighting against Sorcerers, I agree with most of your post -- particularly the stacking issue.

There are several reasons why Consulars and Inquisitors stack so well. One of them is the absence of a meaningful diminishing returns mechanic. The Resolve bar does nothing to prevent stacking multiple CC's of the same type, which is one of the reasons to have a DR mechanic in the first place. Currently you can chain-whirlwind your way to victory.

Then there's the lack of synergy buffs. You don't group with another class and think "yay, now I get 5% increased alacrity" or something. Every class is pretty much equally effective regardless of the other classes that are in the group. So overall, where you would expect the team with a variety to have an advantage, it becomes a matter of stacking the single most powerful/useful class.

Another issue is that there is VERY LITTLE in the Sage/Sorcerer healing tree that actually buffs healing output. The healing talents all revolve around synergy and sustainability, neither of which matter very much in PVP. So a non-healing specced Sage or Sorcerer is still a fully capable healer, they're just a fully capable healer with 3 healing buttons instead of 6. And I doubt they're missing our AOE heal or our HoT very much -- especially since they have easy access to the Force Armor/Static Barrier talents. All this on top of some pretty impressive damage, utility, and crowd-control.

Several times I've done matches as a fully specced healer, and done over 250k healing, with my groupmates doing just as much damage -- but we've lost to teams with 5 inquisitors who were doing 50k damage and 50k healing a piece. All you need to do is stack the class, and everyone can keep themselves alive, while also providing duplicates of the best crowd control and utility abilities currently in the game (the AOE knockback & friendly pull are ridiculously useful in Huttball).

Thats not really a class imbalance issue, tho. That a game mechanic issue, and should be fixed if they ever fix the resolve bar(or put in diminishing returns)

Sorcs and Sages should be nerfed in PVP. I don't wanna touch their PVE balance if at all possible. Notice I said Sorcs AND Sages. Proper class names AND listed both mirrors.


As far as my reasoning summarized:

Sorcs/Sages possess decent to good DPS, decent to fantastic healing/protection, a heavy dose of CC (some of which resolve doesn't do anything against even WHEN it works), and have excellent area control. In addition they have some fantastic tactical skills.

Specific points:

1. Using their full kit they have a distinct advantage in 1 on 1 with double CC.

They have 2 CC and if the sorc is smart 1 will stick for full duration. If the mezz sticks they can heal up mid fight, if the stun sticks they have 4 free seconds or come up even against you (if you have double CC). Furthermore they also have a snare which resolve is useless against (if it works right for once lol)

2. sorcs/sage scale multiplicatively in groups.

The CC/healing/protection factor contributes progressively MORE per person for every additional sorc/sage that is added. In addition as a virtual swiss army knife if there is enough healing/protection they can contribute quite meaningful DPS.

3. This DPS/healing/protection is all at range.

Scoundrels/Operatives at least have to get close and in the fray to dps instead of heal. This keeps them safer as well as lets them attack from 1 level to another. Commando's/Merc's can do this as well with a bit more passive protection. But they lack the utility, the plethora of CC, and the protective bubble. In this case the extra damage does not make up for it because as a result they lose alot of their utility and multiplicative stacking in groups.

4. Geared 50's sorc/sage becomes nigh unkillable by less than 3 people who are not 40+.

This causes a problem because you cannot shut down their DPS (moderate but sustained without level/gear bonus) or their healing/protection. (Fantastic if spec'd for). Not everyone has been playing for a long time or wishes to play ONLY one character. Level to 50 is not a valid point for competitive PVP in which all levels are included.

5. Force speed and survival

If a fight goes badly it's normally a simple matter for any sorc/sage to force speed away and heal up or grab a healing powerup. They will not wait until you can burst them down during a 4 second CC to do this unless they are braindead.

6. Force speed and objectives.

I'm sure your all like "you're stupid, force speed is on a long CD and not as good as you make it out to be." Fair enough.

HOWEVER, force speed is one of the single most tactically useful skills in the game atm. Simply by allowing one to reach one area much faster in a clutch situation sorc/sage gain a significant advantage. Reinforcing or saving turret, defusing/placing bombs, running the huttball across key stretch of ground (even wiser when combined with a pass). Force Speed is an objective acheiver and WZ's are based around objectives. Thus wise usage of force speed can provide quite significant advantages.

It's up to each sorc/sage to decide whether to use Force Speed for objectives or to save their own hides. Either can easily be game changing if used properly.


7. PBAOE kb.

Other classes have this too, however this is on top of their other skills and contributes greatly to their excellent area control and tactical use in huttball/alderann/voidstar.

8. Not a point BUT,

I do want to say that using a sorc/sage does take quite a bit of skill to use to their full potential, but that potential currently surpasses all other classes in PVP and only gets stronger with each additional supportive class added.



For the record YES, I did indeed just get whomped by Sorcs in the WZ's. Wouldn't be any better than being whomped by sages. Enemy team had a whopping 6 sorcs, 1 Sith Juggernaut, and 1 Mercenary. With that much stacked protection/healing we were almost completely unable to hurt anyone between the shields/healing/cc and their damage was still high enough (moderate and sustained as said) to chew through us at a quick clip.

This is most of the same people that previously wiped several WZ's of sith. Not because all the sith were bads, but because most of us were good players. Though we did indeed have 2 matches against bads lol. But even good players cannot do their job when CC'd constantly and facing that much healing/protection.



The real question to answer is: Why play anything but sorc/sage in PVP when they are good 1 on 1 and stack so well? If that is left unanswered, other than "for fun", then I believe we all know that entire guilds will run sorc/sage premades. With token Guardians/Juggernauts.


*NOTE: I know that they are not as impressive as 50's vs other properly geared 50's. If it's possible in any way to lower their early game and keep them competitive at 50, I'd be all for that. I don't want to make any class worthless, but I don't want them ROFLSTOMPING people either.

**Note I also realize that part of this problem could be universal across all hybrid healers. Commando's/Merc's and Scoundrels/Operatives have all been complained about regularly and seem a bit more useful than other classes as well used properly.

Yeah, it's a culmination of a lot of things. Only the healing part is class-specific.