Switch Advanced Classes

If the AC system was left as it was, I'd be happy enough with a 30 day cool down on AC changes. That would at least keep the fast swaping down.

But then again, you can change your role within an AC 5 times an hour if you want. A PowerTech can be a tank one minute and a dps the next. You can queue for a FP for both roles and respect as needed when the queue pops.

Now that I have way too many toons, I'd rather focus on just a few. I've found that I have the problem some do with companions and alliance, at some point they just become numbers.

Rather than have 16+ toons, why not have just a few that you play and love?

Lets say I'm working on heroics, which I usually run on my Commando or my Merc for ranged dps and mobility. I'd also like to queue for FP, but I can only queue as dps, so the queue time is long. Imagine if I could queue as a dps, healer, or tank, and spec as needed when the GF popped?

Imagine that more people may actually want to be tanks/healers if every class could be every role, because you could be dps for the solo game and switch to tank/healing only for group content. You could also take the time to get really good at one class and thus be more effective in combat when grouped.

That would be my preferred solution. Just revert to the 8 main classes and ditch the entire AC system. Have a drop down menu with 6 roles... the 4 existing dps roles, 1 tank, and 1 healing role. But frankly even 4 dps roles might be a bit complex for newer players...

Of course, if I was lead designer and I had the budget, I'd like to create tutorials for each of the 4 dps roles, along with a video showing how each plays. I would recruit a few expert SWTOR players to provide a "demo" of each class and how to maximize the parse for each, showing what abilities are useful, and put it into a preview window.

This way, when players are asking in fleet chat "what is the best role to pick", they can instead read a description of each role, how each works best (DOT/BURST/ETC.) and watch a short video showing that role in action.

Same for healing and tanking, an actual quick video to watch, in the game, showing how that role is played in GROUP content, would be helpful to those new to group stuff.

Yea, I know, YouTube exists, but I'm firmly of the belief that nothing in the game should require going to YouTube.

Speaking of that, I would want to license TeamSpeak and put it right into the game, to make it easy for PUGs to have voice chat without any hassle. You'd have to option to decline it outright, listen only, or listen and talk. The lead tank would be the leader in each group and would have control over TS and the ability to mute players as needed.

But then there are a ton of things I'd do to clean up group content to make it friendler... First, I think everyone should win something from the final boss, if you don't get a loot box, then you should get a token that can be turned in for something. One token gets a basic bronze deco perhaps, 3 tokens gets a silver, 5 get a gold. 2 tokens get a mod or enhancement, 3 get an armoring, 6 get a whole piece of armor (legs for example). 10 could get you a main hand hilt/barrel.

How about having PUG ops groups vote on loot rules? Why doesn't the game allow a "1 token per person" loot system?

Anyway, I could carry on... but I won't, since BW isn't paying me for it.

Been away from the keyboard for a week, or there abouts, good to see the thread is still active as I'd hate to be accused of necroing it as I have been with the other AC swap thread -> http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=644159

I see Ratajack still want's the original intent of the devs upheld. May as well close down the forums then if we're not allowed to debate changes we'd like to be considered. How did that work for those that wanted strongholds, appearance tabs or an off rails pvp space shooter? (Not arguing about the quality of the final product, just that they are all things I seem to recall people saying would never happen... and yet... )

Just a little thing about the use of Advanced Class titles in the Class column. Instead of needing two columns, one for the Class and one for the Advanced Class you can make do with one because you know that the only thing a Powertech could be is a Bounty Hunter. This does not magically make it the class of the character, just that you can infer back to the starting class. The same is not true once you have chosen an AC, a Bounty Hunter could be a Powertech or a Mercenary.
However, what would be even more useful would be to list the discipline taken as that as the final decision that directs the character into their role. I've yet to see anyone ask specifically in chat for a Powertech, I've seen plenty asking for tanks. Not to mention how often I've been whispered while on fleet to tank (I'm usually on a powertech- pyro) and have to waste time explaining that I'm Pyrotech discipline not Shieldtech.

It's good to see a few mentioning maybe expanding the request of an AC swap function to add in more options in the line of extra Advanced Classes and Disciplines to fill out the role portfolios and weapon choices of other Classes.
I've always felt that SWTOR was a little light on player choice, it gives some good Bioware story and some of the best Star Wars themed story I've encountered, but the player has very little input. To the point that as a Bounty Hunter/ Powertech/ Pyro I can only equip a blast pistol... even though I barely use it (maybe for basic attack). It would be nice to have the option to keep it holstered, after all the attack rotation comes from rockets, flamethrowers, darts and railguns rather than mainhand. Or maybe let the character hold something else.

I've often suggested opening up all the roles to all the classes. I felt it was a mistake to tie the role so closely to certain story lines. The Assassin play style makes very little sense for the Inquisitor playthrough, a lot more sense as a sorcerer. And if you want to be a healer you'll never get to experience, in my opinion, one of the best storylines, that of the Sith Warrior. New ACs with the accompanying disciplines could be used to allow all of the classes to fill all of the roles and offer up a few additional varieties of playstyles for that class. Allowing a Bounty Hunter a melee option that uses a tech-staff might be a nice idea, considering the two Mandolorians you encounter as companions both use them.

Once you add in these extra ACs you start to open up the freedom to play what role you want on your character. A line of thinking probably more in keeping with modern game design than the old way of doing things.
It's noticeable that many of the original design choices favoured overly punitive methods of extending playtime that suited a subscription style. Gating access to quicker movement rates, long travel times and long cool downs on quick travel are the obvious examples that have been rolled back.

That's probably more at the root of the dislike of even thinking about an AC swap. It's not hardcore. It supposedly panders to those that want something for nothing (although many of the major MMOs allow the same character to fulfill any of the roles). Missing the point that the audience for a mainstream MMO based on the Star Wars IP was never going to be old school hardcore. Sure there are some, but a majority that can sustain the game... I don't think so.
This is why we've had essentially a soft reboot of the game with 4.0. A new direction with a focus on incentivising monthly subscriptions without a focus on challenging gameplay (yet). And ever easier ways of accessing gear (Eternal Championship and Crafting will allow gear that's good enough to get all the solo content finished).

One of the older arguments against AC swap was that it would inundate the flashpoints and operations with noobs that didn't know how to play their class. An unfortunate argument because it was never about class but about role and the fact that the levelling content was never truly that good at training a player up. It's not an argument against allowing AC swap but more one for having good challenging role specific solo content in the game. This content can not be tied to the normal levelling process as you do not want to gate a players progression through a game that's driving monthly subs through new story content. But, as a stand alone content that can be used to practice role without the frustrations of letting down a group it would fill a much needed gap in bringing players from the solo side of the game to the flashpoints and operations. Eternal Championship may be a glimpse, but I feel the inclusion of a companion and the level of gear it will be dropping it will not be aimed at specific roles (I will withhold full judgement until I've played it).

TL;DNR: The games supposed to be fun, lighten up and go with allowing more options. If you want hardcore this is not the game you are looking for.

Why wait until 5.0 when you can has 4.3, where the GSI droids disappear and in their place will be . . . our characters! That's right Star Wars MMO fans, character gear is nut to butt with companion gear. R.I.P. armor and weapon hassles.

Pissed that single player casuals can solo story for Ops loot? Not any more. We got your back cuz ... no more gear! Why waste all that time parsing, practicing comparative arithmetic, crafting and making choices when you could invest that time looking cool as hell in themed costumes while steamrolling your way through to Companionville uberdom?

Disciplines? Schmisciplines. You can be OP as either a tank, dps or healer with two clicks of a pull down menu right from the comfort of your character sheet. And talk about play style options ... for only 100CC you can even purchase single use unlocks that allow a character to play as all three at the same time! Why feel limited by the trinity when you can actually be the trinity!!!

We now return you to your regularly scheduled soap opera.

You keep saying that, but you don't have any proof. And even if you did present that they did say just that, well, I can still judge for myself what they really are. It's obvious that the Subclasses branch off of the main classes. You start off as a Bounty Hunter, for example, and can then go either/or when it comes to Powertech and Mercenary. You don't start off as a Bounty Hunter, and are then offered Assassin/Sorcerer/Juggernaut/Marauder/Sniper/Operative, as that, is where the true fundamental difference is.

Maybe our understanding of the word 'fundamental' is different. But when the original devs first sat down to figure out the difference between a full class, they gave him weapons, armor, a story, a voice actor, two subclasses/variants, and three disciplines per subclass.

Then, they took their arms, and swept all that work off the table so that not a single drawing, clay model, or empty cup of coffee remained from the design of that class; so that they may begin the design of the next full class.

That, is a better example of what it means to be fundamentally different from the other.

There are some people who have made it to 60 without picking a subclass, actually. But that doesn't mean they are entirely different subclasses, that just means that the devs designed the interface so players can simply understand who/what everyone is. After all, it would be way redundant if the chart said
Player | Level | Class | Subclass | Planet (Instance) | Comment
Firstguy | 60 | Knight | Sentinel | Republic Fleet
Someoneelse | 60 | Knight | Sentinel | Republic Fleet
DarthSithSlayer | 60 | Knight | Sentinel | Republic Fleet
Weneedarealnamingsystem | 60 | Knight | Sentinel | Republic Fleet
Master'Obi-Juan | 60 | Knight | Sentinel | Republic Fleet
Whyisn'tObi-JuanaGuardian | 60 | Knight | Sentinel | Republic Fleet
LukenSkywalkersie | 60 | Knight | Sentinel | Republic Fleet
Andwhyisn'tLukenSkywalkersieaGuardianeither | 60 | Knight | Sentinel | Republic Fleet
Asajj'Ventress | 60 | Knight | Guardian | Republic Fleet
Idon'tevenknowanymore | 60 | Consular | Sage | Republic Fleet

and so on.

Anyone can say anything; even the devs. That doesn't make it the case, though. They can say that they support the midichlorian explanation, they can say money grows on trees, they can say Earth has two moons, they can say that this apple they dipped in orange dye is now an orange, or they can say that the "advanced classes" are entirely different classes.

But, anyone will go see for themselves what the truth really is. And I have seen for myself that the Subclasses both branch off the same class. They're like two branches of the same tree. Imagine four two-branch trees in a clearing, now imagine that I claim that the two branches grew from the same tree for each tree, whilst you try to argue that there are eight separate trees, entirely.

There...
Are...
Three...
Lights!

Um..sorry.

Does each branch have 3 smaller branches? And wouldn't there actually be eight trees - four for each faction?

Why do we park in the driveway and drive on the parkway? If a frog had wings, would be bump his *** every time he jumped?

Now THAT was funny... thanks for bringing humor to such a super serious thread.

On a side note: The game will be fine with or without all this, in my personal opinion, it falls into the "nice to have but not required" category.

But that's just me.

Ok...
Let's do this!!!

But only if you will have to wait for month to change your char AC. Aaaaand it will cost about 10000 CC.
I guess it will be fair price

Sure I'd support it even if you had to wait a month.

I'd prefer it without the wait, but I would definitely accept the wait to have the option.

I have no objections to this having a long cooldown.

For you as a player, the switching is a negligible thing. Pre-4.0, and even at endgame in post-4.0, it would be a problematic thing from a couple of perspectives.
Taking a Knight/Warrior, if you want to switch from Sentinel/Marauder to Guardian/Juggernaut, you are potentially changing only the look of your character (playing as a DPS Guardian/Juggernaut), or adopting a radically different playstyle and group role (changing from DPS to Tank).
At this time, the leveling experience is so easy that there is no need for a tank class to learn their class mechanics before reaching endgame Ops, because in most cases that is the first time a tank will actually group up with other players. The result is that the tank is probably going to be terrible at their role and because the tank is terrible, the group wipes and everyone has a crappy day (I know, I am generalising a lot, but my experience of tanking with newer players who otherwise play DPS bears this out) .
So that person being able to switch ACs is causing problems for other people... but I grant you that the same can be said for someone who plays the tank class all the way through instead of switching - it is not necessarily the switching that makes the tank bad, but it does not help.
As it stands, the way to "change Advanced Classes" is to roll another character, and this brings us to the biggest single reason why I do not think that Bioware will implement AC switching - having alts. Specifically, experiencing the storyline on several different classes, and then deciding that you want to try another AC within one of your existing classes. So you go to create a new character, and you find that you have hit the Subscriber/Preferred/F2P character limit, so you need to either delete an existing character or buy a Character Slot Unlock (probably from the CM). Meaning that BIoware get a revenue stream from you not being able to switch AC. BY allowing AC switching, Bioware remove 95% of the reason for players to buy Character Slot unlocks, so implementing this feature would hurt their CM sales... maybe not by a huge amount, but asking them to do work that will reduce their ability to sell us stuff? How likely is that?