Switch Advanced Classes

(1)How is it not dumbing the game down further? Under your trinity system, that eliminates 2/3rds of the DPS disciplines. That isn't maintaining variety or complexity it is removing it.

Under the old shared tree system that might have worked if they kept all five trees per arch-type. Although in cases like PT/Merc Pyro someone would have to decide whether that is a 1-gun or two spec. The same for the Rage for Warriors (one saber or two?). The same for Madness (single or double blade) and the same for Lethality (Blaster Rifle or Sniper Rifle).

(2) And they have that exact option under the current system. No one is forced to level as a healer. Leveling as a solo healer doesn't teach you to group heal. Leveling as a solo tank doesn't really teach you anything about group tanking. I level all of my toons as DPS then assign them at max level into the role I want them.

Every subscriber has at least 12 slots. I don't pander to F2P/Preferred so I really don't care what their restriction is.

It's more like 25% similarity between ACs; certainly not 95. Is there bleed over between ACs of the same story? Yes. Was there talk of AC changing way back in beta? Yes. Has there been any legitimate talk of it since? No.

Consular and Smuggler are stories, not classes. Shadow and Scoundrel are Classes not Sub-classes, we just call them Advanced Classes here. This isn't PnP D&D where you can be a Warrior 10/Ranger 2/Rogue 8. You can only be one thing. If you choose to be a mercenary that is how the game displays your class. Your character sheet doesn't say Bounty Hunter 10, Mercenary 55.

Where people get confused is that unlike any other AAA MMO this game let's you "test drive" a story before committing to a class within that story.

There is no fundamental difference between going from a PT to a Merc and going from an Operative to a Merc. You are still going from a melee class to a ranged class. There is no ranged spec for an Assassin and there is no Melee spec for a Sorcerer. Call it the slippery slope logical fallacy all you like, but the 60-token has made AC Respec all but a certainty in many people's mind; where once it was but a pipe dream.

Mechanically there is no difference between a Juggernaut and a Guardian. Those are the same class. Just not the same story.

I thought it was quite funny... I get the joke, and since this is just a game and not real life, it doesn't bother me at all.

Actually, thinking about what you said... I can see a situation where a lot of people might complain if various trees were removed.

What about simply having each class able to pick from every skill tree from both ACs? That would give a Commando, what... 1 tank, 1 heal, and 4 dps trees? Likewise, a Vanguard would get the same 6 trees.

What do you think of that compromise?

I see your point, and addressed it in my post just above.

What about that solution? 1 tank tree, 1 heal tree, and 4 dps trees for each AC? This way, no one has to lose anything.

Yea, but how many actually use all 12? I suspect that a vocal minority screamed for more than 22 slots, while the vast majority of players have fewer than 6 toons. I don't know of course, Bioware has never released that info, but if I had to place my money down, that is what I'd place it on.

After playing FF XIV, the idea of having to roll a dozen alts looks REALLY stupid. Ok, I get Empire/Republic, and I get Force user/non-Force user.

So that would be 4 alts.

1 Jedi
1 Smuggler/Trooper
1 Sith
1 Agent/BH

You could actually keep all the roles that currently exist in the game with just those 4 toons, and still keep a sense of separation between force/non-force, and factions.

No, actually the game calls them exactly that... Consular is the class, Shadow is the Advanced Class, it is quite clear in the game.

It is also true that the differences in story between a Sage and a Shadow are more or less zero. The actual advanced class plays differently, but nothing in the actual game world cares or notes which AC you are.

Some day, someone is going to have to explain how a Vanguard has a blaster rifle yet can only shoot 10 meters. That is one of the most contrived things I've seen in a long time.

It is even more contrived to suggest that a Vanguard couldn't easily learn how to shoot 30m. The ONLY reason the limit is there is to attempt to class balance, no more or less. It makes zero sense in the story. But then it is just a game, not real life. In real life, you wouldn't send 8 people to fight on the ground with a super ops boss, you'd nuke the site from orbit.

As noted above, you are mistaken.

A Juggernaut's class is "Sith Warrior". A Guardian's class is "Jedi Knight".

The game couldn't be more clear that is the case.

This game could call ACs "Goon Professions" ... they would still be classes. But what do I know, I've only been playing RPG games longer than Bioware has been a company. Bioware calling Bounty Hunter a "class" on a 5 year old description page doesn't make it so.

They are identical other than story and animations. Identical. The only difference is the perspective of the larger story that you participate in.

You'll get no argument out of me on the ridiculousness of Operatives and Powertechs + mirrors being melee with ranged weapon skins. That is 100% boneheaded.

D&D calls them classes. WoW calls them classes. ESO calls them classes. SWG called them professions - that didn;t make them magically not classes.

People are conflating what this game calls a class into what other games call a class. But nothing could be further from the truth. If (eg) Bounty Hunter was a full blown class then you would receive BH abilities on the regular. But you don't. You get new AC abilities regularly and new overall BH abilities sparsely. You have far more AC abilities than story abilities. If there ever comes a time when 51% of a players abilities come from their story type then I will call that the class. But so long as most of your abilities come from your AC .... then your AC is your actual class.

But, since you want to go by this studio's definition. I am willing, right here and now, to concede that Bounty Hunter is a class if you concede that according to this studio AC respecs will not happen.

As to a solution ... AC selection at creation. Problem solved. Other than that there is no problem at all.

I see what you mean, you're looking at the larger picture, and yes, a Jugg and a Guardian are mirror roles. I was referring to what the game calls classes and advanced classes, not what an outside impartial observer would call them.

We agree on something, woot!

Nothing is set in stone. 4.0 brought about major changes to the core game. Anything can happen.

I give it 50/50 odds that 5.0 will bring about exactly what I'm suggesting, that every class will be able to pick from all three roles. We shall see.

And I give it dollars:doughnuts that there will not be a 6.0 or SWTOR a year later if that comes to pass.

We agree on more than you think we do. But, I'm a hard-liner on this issue.

Did 4.0 knock down a lot of the arguments against it? Yes. Absolutely. But not all.

Did 4.0 also invalidate the "need" for it? Yes. Almost entirely.

I would not oppose it if it was a once per character event. I could get behind that. But only once per character.

But we both know that that will not be the case. It was supposed to be a never per character event; yet here we are talking about it. If it comes to pass it will not be limited or cost prohibitive. 60-tokens have been "reduced" by 44% since they were introduced (which is just a gimmick to make fools believe they are getting a good deal on something arbitrarily priced in the first place). With "signature clicks" alone, I could buy a level 60 every other week if I wanted to. AC respec would be no different. The argument would be made: "I can buy a whole new level 60 for 2k CC!" And that would be the price.

Is that what MMOs have devolved into? Spending less than $20 (or just subscribing for 4 months) to get a ("free") high level character? Other than paying Bioware directly, how is that not the exact same thing as a character leveling service?

Believe me, I understand capping off an AC that you can't stand to play. I have multiples of each on both sides of the game. I don't like Mara/Sent. I don't like Sniper/Slinger. I have each of them because I wanted one of every AC.

That said. Because our disciplines are selected from a drop down menu now, I see little reason why that couldn't be expanded from 3 to 6 and eliminate the ACs altogether. This would allow the four archtypes to have access to each of their disciplines.

A few things would have to be worked out such as a healing discipline for Warrior/Knights and a tank discipline for agent/Smugglers.

Additionally, weapon types would have to either be consolidated per archtype or the restrictions removed/greatly reduced. I'm a fan of removal. If a change like this were to take place, there is no room for half measures.

I'm talking tech-staves as the default for PT/VG disciplines. Assault cannon as an option for mercenary disciplines. Two pistols for Commandos. Single bladed assassins, double bladed sorcs. Vibroknives as main hands for Operatives. That kind of stuff.

The Melee mechanics for PT/VG Op/Sco are very confusing. My third toon (way back in Dec11/Jan12) was an Operative and I honestly thought he was just a crappy ranged DPS until I started doing HM FPs with him and someone corrected me.

I suspect I could find a post saying that same thing about "if those darn instant level cap tokens come out, this game is finished!".

Fair enough... I respect your right to feel that way, all I ask in return is that you respect that I have a right to feel otherwise...

The world should be wide enough for both views. Just maybe not in one game

Yes, it really is. It has been headed this way for some time.

I played UO a long time ago, for a short while, but it was much too harsh for my taste. I tried Everquest... lord, anyone who thinks SWTOR is "grindy" doesn't know what GRIND is!

But yes, this is where they are going, and will continue to go.

I also give at least 20% odds that by 5.0, we'll have a "story mode" where there is no combat, or you get a one-shot kill on everything, in return you get no gear or comms. This will be for people who just want to play the 8 class stories without actually having to fight.

Before you say that is silly... my wife would take that option in a heartbeat. She really doesn't care for the endless combat, she would rather enjoy the story.

I agree on the Mara/Sent, but I love my sniper/slinger. I don't care for the Sin/Shadow however, I don't play those.