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Why is Bioware so much more willing to kill Imperial characters?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Why is Bioware so much more willing to kill Imperial characters?

Joachimthbear's Avatar


Joachimthbear
01.20.2016 , 04:54 AM | #121
Quote: Originally Posted by Cicgnar View Post
I think I've done it, but... Here I go again. I'll try to put all my ideas in some sort of order so you can at least see my train of thought.
I appreciate it. If I've read you right this time then I disagree on two things, one of them quite subjective.

Quote: Originally Posted by Cicgnar View Post
The point of this thread, what the OP originally asked about is why only the recognizable Imperials die, while the Republic ones have been around longer and have been put through the same dangers, yet none of them have been even scathed by what they've been put through. [...] I simply find it very odd. As I've said before, the Republic heroes seem to have impenetrable plot-armor.
This is the less-subjective one. Simply put, the Republic characters haven't been put through the same dangers - and not because of bad writing or whatever. The Sith Empire is consistently shown as a warrior culture where anyone who shies away from personal danger is seen as weak. We see this with everyone from Darth Malgus, climbing down from his throne to personally defend his New Empire, to Watcher One, ordered to throw his life away in a futile battle. Malgus, or Kilran, or Decimus or Lachris, could have retreated and lived, but that is not the Sith way, not the Empire's way. The Empire's "heroes" end up in mortal danger more because that's expected of them - and because many Sith believe they're invincible. That doesn't apply to Leontyne Saresh or even to Satele Shan - the first time we've ever seen Satele close to the front line of a battle in-game was when fighting Revan on Yavin IV (and if someone important had died there it would have either overshadowed or been overshadowed by what was meant to be the big moment).

Republic characters staying away from dangerous fights is not an example of plot armour. If Republic characters were taking the same risks as Empire characters and always surviving, that would be plot armour. If Empire characters were still shown taking much greater risks than the Republic ones and yet always survived, that would be plot armour.

Quote: Originally Posted by Cicgnar View Post
The same could be said about all those npcs you only get to see in one class-story. They have very limited dramatic effect, since only one class would know who the npc was or what he/she did. So that's why their deaths "don't count", to this thread purpose, at least.
This is the subjective one. I've always found that the characters who are personally involved with my character's story are more important to that story than the ones in the background. Who cares about that guy who briefed me on a couple of flashpoints? This character was my teacher and mentor, this character betrayed me and left me for dead, this character made me the pawn of his evil plans. Whether those characters live or die means more to me than what's going on with Saresh or Satele.

Quote: Originally Posted by Cicgnar View Post
But tell me, what difference would be between killing Satele off camera (for example) and how the chancellor dies in the BH storyline to everyone else? Because to everyone not involved (meaning, the BH), he's just a faceless npc, who only had the tiniest of mentions through the storyline. Therefore, his death has NO IMPACT whatsoever. And we're talking about the Republic leader's death!
The difference is that Satele has made multiple appearances and has already made some impression on the players. A character nobody has seen before dying off-screen would have, as you say, no impact. A character who has appeared repeatedly dying off-screen is a huge anticlimax (and/or a dead giveaway that they're still alive somewhere ).

Daex's Avatar


Daex
01.20.2016 , 05:16 AM | #122
I do not know. I just know one thing, every Imperial character I liked is now dead and all of them died in a such stupid way. In other words, their death was not something that would have killed them just day ago before the encounter.

Joachimthbear's Avatar


Joachimthbear
01.20.2016 , 06:26 AM | #123
Quote: Originally Posted by Daex View Post
I do not know. I just know one thing, every Imperial character I liked is now dead and all of them died in a such stupid way. In other words, their death was not something that would have killed them just day ago before the encounter.
Who exactly is on that list? Because I can't imagine Darth Malgus, for example, could survive
Spoiler
If Malgus made it out of that situation alive? That is plot armour.

Codedrago's Avatar


Codedrago
01.20.2016 , 10:50 AM | #124
Quote: Originally Posted by Joachimthbear View Post
Who exactly is on that list? Because I can't imagine Darth Malgus, for example, could survive
Spoiler
If Malgus made it out of that situation alive? That is plot armour.
Uh... There is this.
It's not that you disagree, it's how you disagree
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Cicgnar's Avatar


Cicgnar
01.20.2016 , 11:03 AM | #125
Quote: Originally Posted by Joachimthbear View Post
I appreciate it. If I've read you right this time then I disagree on two things, one of them quite subjective.


This is the less-subjective one. Simply put, the Republic characters haven't been put through the same dangers - and not because of bad writing or whatever.

Republic characters staying away from dangerous fights is not an example of plot armour. If Republic characters were taking the same risks as Empire characters and always surviving, that would be plot armour. If Empire characters were still shown taking much greater risks than the Republic ones and yet always survived, that would be plot armour.
I disagree with you here. As I mentioned before, yeah, you may be right about the "not guiding from the frontline" part (though I personally disagree, specially in Satele's case. She is shown as a very active leader early on, as shown in the Black Talon FP) but, that doesn't spare them from the assasination part. You get to see them often enough that at least they should be under attack sometimes! The Empire is a warrior culture... allied with a mercenary culture and with an intelligence service that uses routinely murder as a way to further their advances.

The fact that nobody ever says "Hey, you know what? Let's put a bomb in the chancellor's chambers and see if the next one is so willing to take risks as this one!" IS plot armor. As thick as the PCs.

Quote: Originally Posted by Joachimthbear View Post
This is the subjective one. I've always found that the characters who are personally involved with my character's story are more important to that story than the ones in the background. Who cares about that guy who briefed me on a couple of flashpoints? This character was my teacher and mentor, this character betrayed me and left me for dead, this character made me the pawn of his evil plans. Whether those characters live or die means more to me than what's going on with Saresh or Satele.

The difference is that Satele has made multiple appearances and has already made some impression on the players. A character nobody has seen before dying off-screen would have, as you say, no impact. A character who has appeared repeatedly dying off-screen is a huge anticlimax (and/or a dead giveaway that they're still alive somewhere ).
Again, I respect your opinion. From a character point of view, you're right. Of course the catarsis the SI gets from Thanathon's fate is much more intense that whatever you feel from Malgus'. But we're not talking about a single storyline, but the story as a whole.

What I meant in my example is... the chancellor is the leader of the Republic. Yet he is an unimportant NPC outside the BH storyline, who I think you never get to see even as any other class... and dies in a fashion that could be considered off-camera for all purposes. I think that's wasting dramatic effect for both factions, and denying the Reps a fallen hero to remember or fight for. Which is something that almost every hero has.

Joachimthbear's Avatar


Joachimthbear
01.21.2016 , 10:17 AM | #126
Quote: Originally Posted by Cicgnar View Post
The fact that nobody ever says "Hey, you know what? Let's put a bomb in the chancellor's chambers and see if the next one is so willing to take risks as this one!" IS plot armor. As thick as the PCs.
The thing is, it's shown in the story that it's nowhere near that easy. A big part of what the Bounty Hunter does on Corellia
Spoiler

Daex's Avatar


Daex
01.21.2016 , 11:57 AM | #127
Quote: Originally Posted by Joachimthbear View Post
Who exactly is on that list? Because I can't imagine Darth Malgus, for example, could survive
Spoiler
If Malgus made it out of that situation alive? That is plot armour.
I will explain.
I am hard core Malgus fan, so he is on my list taking golden number one and I can sometimes be bias

Spoiler


Second is Darth Marr, a guy who did not even try to block the lightning. Then Thanathon (yeah), who decided to be bad because... Then Jadus, who is gone with the wind even if he is second to Emperor. Then Revan, who I get to farm because he split himself.

Only left is Darth Vowrawn. ;p He is cool. He seems like a calculated person who is about to surprise you when you least expect. Also, he looks like he is always plotting something but would not harm the Empire. I suppose the way he is going to die will be something close to: 'he chocked on a muffin during the battle'.

Codedrago's Avatar


Codedrago
01.21.2016 , 01:20 PM | #128
Quote: Originally Posted by Daex View Post
I will explain.
I am hard core Malgus fan, so he is on my list taking golden number one and I can sometimes be bias

Spoiler


Second is Darth Marr, a guy who did not even try to block the lightning. Then Thanathon (yeah), who decided to be bad because... Then Jadus, who is gone with the wind even if he is second to Emperor. Then Revan, who I get to farm because he split himself.

Only left is Darth Vowrawn. ;p He is cool. He seems like a calculated person who is about to surprise you when you least expect. Also, he looks like he is always plotting something but would not harm the Empire. I suppose the way he is going to die will be something close to: 'he chocked on a muffin during the battle'.
1. There is no way Marr would be interested in helping Malgus, while he might agree with some of his ideals, Malgus is the reason the Makeb situation was ''Nothing to lose, everything to win''.

2. The Malgus clip is a deleted scene of the trailer, so either they didn't want to give away his return or it was a story thread theat they decided to scrap.

3. I feel like Vowrawn is going to appear when we eventually meet Acina again. At one point we're going to go to her to try and get more resources from the Empire, she'll not agree and send us out, then we get contacted by Valwrawn who aims to help us.
It's not that you disagree, it's how you disagree
You're a white knight if you like Bioware, you're a whiner if you hate them, you're a scummy fence sitter if you're in the middle.
Why don't go and click this referral link . Please? Pwetty Pwease with a Vette on top?

Codedrago's Avatar


Codedrago
01.21.2016 , 01:22 PM | #129
Quote: Originally Posted by Joachimthbear View Post
The thing is, it's shown in the story that it's nowhere near that easy. A big part of what the Bounty Hunter does on Corellia
Spoiler
I do enjoy the idea that Tormen and the Bounty Hunter indirectly caused the Empire a lot of grief by getting Saresh in the Chancellor.
It's not that you disagree, it's how you disagree
You're a white knight if you like Bioware, you're a whiner if you hate them, you're a scummy fence sitter if you're in the middle.
Why don't go and click this referral link . Please? Pwetty Pwease with a Vette on top?

Daex's Avatar


Daex
01.21.2016 , 02:20 PM | #130
Quote: Originally Posted by Codedrago View Post
1. There is no way Marr would be interested in helping Malgus, while he might agree with some of his ideals, Malgus is the reason the Makeb situation was ''Nothing to lose, everything to win''.

2. The Malgus clip is a deleted scene of the trailer, so either they didn't want to give away his return or it was a story thread theat they decided to scrap.

3. I feel like Vowrawn is going to appear when we eventually meet Acina again. At one point we're going to go to her to try and get more resources from the Empire, she'll not agree and send us out, then we get contacted by Valwrawn who aims to help us.
As I said, crazy idea. More like my mega-biased, fancrazy dream. I am sometimes ashamed for liking a fictional character that much. Not sure is it healthy.

When it comes to that scene...I heard many stories, but my personal opinion was that first you decide how the story is going to evolve, then you make the trailer. I somewhere read that they thought adding Malgus scene would drag too much attention from Thexan's death and would make the trailer look Imperial biased. Anyway, it was a nice way for them to reopen the wounds.

Yeah, I also have a feeling Vowrawn will contact us. I am sure he has a plan, just waiting for the right moment to execute it. The facial expression he has while bowing to brat Arcann told me enough. He hates the position he is in.