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Why Macros belong in TOR.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Why Macros belong in TOR.

_compton_'s Avatar


_compton_
12.28.2011 , 10:39 AM | #231
Quote: Originally Posted by MemphisIX View Post
I guess at the heart of this discussion lie differing views on what should make the game challening.

Me? I think it should be the mechanics themselves that present the challenge, whereas moving around and accessing my abilities in the easiest and smoothest way possible should be encouraged.

I see others here suggesting that not being able to click on someone easily is "part of the challenge" and therefore should stay as is.

In the latter case I'd opine, however, that you may as well get rid of hotkeys altogether, that will provide the ultimate challenge in PvP, I can assure you that.
A point I've been trying to make - but some of those in opposition just conveniently disregard whole portions of an argument and take things out of context.

Oh well.

Here's an analogy that pretty accurately represents the primary argument against focus macros/mouseover macros:

I feel like we should remove all forms of enhanced transportation from our society - sure, driving from LA to NY may be much more efficient, but I'd much rather walk across the country so I can better appreciate all of the sights - plus, I get exercise!

MemphisIX's Avatar


MemphisIX
12.28.2011 , 10:42 AM | #232
Quote: Originally Posted by Thaonnor View Post
Macro - Computing a single instruction that expands automatically into a set of instructions to perform a particular task. (Oxford)

All macros are by definition automated. They are automating a process in which would normally be done by clicking the target to focus them. Now that our definition of macro is cleared up (unless of course you would like to argue with dictionary definitions, in which case we have much larger issues than macros in SWTOR).
Not to pick on your post but no, not all macros are like this. Some, most, are. But some simply allow for the use of 1 cast bar instead of 4, same buttons, same functionality, the only difference is a cleaner UI. That's a macro, and it doesn't fit your dictionary definition.

People need state at the end of their posts whether or not they EVER used macros. Some clearly haven't.

I, of course, always have, and continue to do so via peripherals, I just want to see them added to the game.
Quote: Originally Posted by Tersidre
It is as if thousands of trolls cried out at once and then were suddenly silence, and then replaced by paying trolls.

NightHawke's Avatar


NightHawke
12.28.2011 , 10:42 AM | #233
Quote: Originally Posted by MemphisIX View Post
So, clearly you don't play a Shadow. I do, and it's not button mashing, let me say that. I put a lot of care into my talent build, I use every single ability in my book, and after a while, I can finally see that I'm getting slightly better.
Besides, I don't know, maybe you don't allow macros that allow you to hit a button and do everything you need. No one here is asking for that, we just want enhanced functionality.
Clearly I played a shadow in beta, and I currently play a scoundrel.

Explain to me enhanced functionality if you don't have a button push do everything for you or a series of everything for you, then what exactly do you think a macro does?
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Thaonnor's Avatar


Thaonnor
12.28.2011 , 10:42 AM | #234
Quote: Originally Posted by MemphisIX View Post
I guess at the heart of this discussion lie differing views on what should make the game challening.

Me? I think it should be the mechanics themselves that present the challenge, whereas moving around and accessing my abilities in the easiest and smoothest way possible should be encouraged.

I see others here suggesting that not being able to click on someone easily is "part of the challenge" and therefore should stay as is.

In the latter case I'd opine, however, that you may as well get rid of hotkeys altogether, that will provide the ultimate challenge in PvP, I can assure you that.
I agree that the click box is small. But creating a macro to target someone is going around the even simpler solution of making the UI less clunky, where macros are not needed.

If the developers instead create a system in which macros are not needed, they keep things on a level playing field without the need to write or look up macros. I understand a healers pain as I too heal in war zones. However, I feel that with an improved raid frame UI for healers, they could eliminate the need that some people are seeing for macros.

To me, it falls on the developers to create a system that I do not have to resort to writing scripts or macros to play.

bobaTBS's Avatar


bobaTBS
12.28.2011 , 10:42 AM | #235
Quote: Originally Posted by _compton_ View Post
@Boba
You still haven't said anything new, nor have you supported your arguments or really gone into much depth at all.
Why should I say something new when you didn't argue against the fact that focus macro makes the game easier and less complex other than saying that the complexity removed by addition of focus macro is "artificial raising of the skill cap" which is not an argument at all? Writing a wall of text in which you say absolutely nothing is not supporting your arguments.

_compton_'s Avatar


_compton_
12.28.2011 , 10:45 AM | #236
Quote: Originally Posted by NightHawke View Post
Clearly I played a shadow in beta, and I currently play a scoundrel.

Explain to me enhanced functionality if you don't have a button push do everything for you or a series of everything for you, then what exactly do you think a macro does?
Again, you are completely missing the point and posting in ignorance because you failed to read the OP.

@Boba - I've honestly lost track of how many times you've refuted my statements and arguments, often without providing alternatives - as I said, your argument has not changed. It is jaded and simplistic.

To clarify one more time: focus macros increase the fluidity and speed of combat, both by allowing players to react faster to new developments, monitor and manage multiple targets, and because a healer can realistically expect to be interrupted if there are focus macros within game and has to account for and anticipate that eventuality (increasing the tactical complexity). Manually clicking targets only involves muscle twitch speed, lag, and how accurate your mouse is. That is artificial increasing of the skill cap when this game is inherently tactical, by nature.

Here's an analogy that pretty accurately summarizes the primary argument against focus macros/mouseover macros:

"I feel like we should remove all forms of enhanced transportation from our society - sure, driving from LA to NY may be much more efficient, but I'd much rather walk across the country so I can better appreciate all of the sights - plus, I get exercise!"

MemphisIX's Avatar


MemphisIX
12.28.2011 , 10:48 AM | #237
Quote: Originally Posted by NightHawke View Post
Clearly I played a shadow in beta, and I currently play a scoundrel.

Explain to me enhanced functionality if you don't have a button push do everything for you or a series of everything for you, then what exactly do you think a macro does?
Most of us played WoW, can I assume that?

I never, ever EVER even on PvE used macros that automated my class in any way, shape, or form. Not even standard rotations.

I wanted a cleaner UI, and to be able to easily access all my abilities at first. Then (playing a Boomkin in BC, one of the few) I started playing around with the notion that some abilities had no GCD, so I would combine two, or three, to make a single potent cast. I still had access to them individually, but sometimes in, certain conditions, I'd activate many at the same time, with a single button.
Notice I was still able to do most things even without this "enhanced functionality", which I will define as simply being able to do something faster. Instead of it taking 1 second, It'd take zero (measured from the point I hit the first ability).

In Arenas, I'd make it so targeting a healer ("focus") was easy, it would be displayed on my UI as well, regardless of who my actual target was, and I'd be able to interrupt them if need be, as soon as I noticed a cast. That was it, I wouldn't define it as "automation", I'd define it as "enhanced functionality", which I did : )
Quote: Originally Posted by Tersidre
It is as if thousands of trolls cried out at once and then were suddenly silence, and then replaced by paying trolls.

bobaTBS's Avatar


bobaTBS
12.28.2011 , 10:50 AM | #238
Quote: Originally Posted by _compton_ View Post
@Boba - I've honestly lost track of how many times you've refuted my statements and arguments, often without providing alternatives - as I said, your argument has not changed. It is jaded and simplistic.

Here's an analogy that pretty accurately summarizes the primary argument against focus macros/mouseover macros:

I feel like we should remove all forms of enhanced transportation from our society - sure, driving from LA to NY may be much more efficient, but I'd much rather walk across the country so I can better appreciate all of the sights - plus, I get exercise!
And again you didn't argue against what I said, you just used another false analogy. Come back when you actually have an argument, cy@

Thaonnor's Avatar


Thaonnor
12.28.2011 , 10:51 AM | #239
Quote: Originally Posted by _compton_ View Post
Again, you are completely missing the point and posting in ignorance because you failed to read the OP.

@Boba - I've honestly lost track of how many times you've refuted my statements and arguments, often without providing alternatives - as I said, your argument has not changed. It is jaded and simplistic.

Here's an analogy that pretty accurately summarizes the primary argument against focus macros/mouseover macros:

"I feel like we should remove all forms of enhanced transportation from our society - sure, driving from LA to NY may be much more efficient, but I'd much rather walk across the country so I can better appreciate all of the sights - plus, I get exercise!"
There are so many posts with the most obvious alternative in this thread that you must be blind or illiterate to think that they are not here.

Fix the systems, don't create an automated way to play the broken systems. There is the alternative right there.

MemphisIX's Avatar


MemphisIX
12.28.2011 , 10:52 AM | #240
Another point I feel is not being stressed enough:

You anti-macro folk realize we still use macros right? I can set them right here on my keyboard no prob. So I still have them.
As I stated earlier, I'd like to see them placed into the game itself for two reasons:
1. Easier access.
2. A level playing field where you don't need special hardware to run your macros.
Quote: Originally Posted by Tersidre
It is as if thousands of trolls cried out at once and then were suddenly silence, and then replaced by paying trolls.