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dps meter


Thankyjack's Avatar


Thankyjack
12.28.2011 , 09:49 AM | #11
DPS meters have ruined every game they have appeared in. First, they encourage people to ignore proper fight mechanics to pad numbers. So many fights have mechanics that reduce overall dps that are completely ignored by players who want to pad their DPS Meter numbers. These people universally point to their DPS numbers to justify their performance when I would much prefer that they switch targets and/or do the right thing.

Second, dps numbers do not reflect raid performance; they reflect player gear. A player who maximizes performance in lesser gear will often have less dps than a player who is average in superior gear. That is a truism in MMOs that many players simply ignore.

In PVE, you are doing well, when your team downs the content. Period.

If you really want to know how you do in comparison to others, then play PvP. That's the only meaningful way to find out how you stack up against someone else. Even then, gear plays a huge part, but a lesser geared player who is very good, will often beat a geared player who is clueless (at least more often than occurs in PVE).

SlickDevlan's Avatar


SlickDevlan
12.28.2011 , 10:09 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Thankyjack View Post
DPS meters have ruined every game they have appeared in. First, they encourage people to ignore proper fight mechanics to pad numbers. So many fights have mechanics that reduce overall dps that are completely ignored by players who want to pad their DPS Meter numbers. These people universally point to their DPS numbers to justify their performance when I would much prefer that they switch targets and/or do the right thing.

Second, dps numbers do not reflect raid performance; they reflect player gear. A player who maximizes performance in lesser gear will often have less dps than a player who is average in superior gear. That is a truism in MMOs that many players simply ignore.

In PVE, you are doing well, when your team downs the content. Period.

If you really want to know how you do in comparison to others, then play PvP. That's the only meaningful way to find out how you stack up against someone else. Even then, gear plays a huge part, but a lesser geared player who is very good, will often beat a geared player who is clueless (at least more often than occurs in PVE).
You confuse "damage meter" with "idiot". Will you anti-damage meter people stop blaming a tool and start blaming the tools that don't use it correctly.

Thankyjack's Avatar


Thankyjack
12.28.2011 , 10:18 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by SlickDevlan View Post
You confuse "damage meter" with "idiot". Will you anti-damage meter people stop blaming a tool and start blaming the tools that don't use it correctly.
Which came first, the chicken or the egg. WoW once had a fantastic community.

In short, the people who would use DPS meters correctly, don't need them.

Look, I am an ex-athlete and extremely competitive. I use every tool available to maximize performance and I hate DPS meters (even though I top them frequently). When you see someone top meters, take a deeper look into the interrupts they missed or the extra healing they needed or the cc they broke. DPS meters make people lose focus on the real objective.

To each his own I guess.

SlickDevlan's Avatar


SlickDevlan
12.28.2011 , 10:23 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Thankyjack View Post
Which came first, the chicken or the egg. WoW once had a fantastic community.

In short, the people who would use DPS meters correctly, don't need them.

Look, I am an ex-athlete and extremely competitive. I use every tool available to maximize performance and I hate DPS meters (even though I top them frequently). When you see someone top meters, take a deeper look into the interrupts they missed or the extra healing they needed or the cc they broke. DPS meters make people lose focus on the real objective.

To each his own I guess.
Damage meters appeared very soon after WoW launched so unless you are saying that WoW had a fantastic community for the first 6 months and then it tanked you may want to try again.

So, as an athlete that hates damage meters, I assume that you are only concerned with beating your opponent and have zero interest in finding out what your time/score/stats were... Right!?

DeviIish's Avatar


DeviIish
01.12.2012 , 09:16 AM | #15
A better solution to this problem, that would help both sides is:

an in game dps meter that ONLY displays your dps.

yes yes I heard you scream. But think about it, the people who WANT to do well, who want to find the best spec, who want to see what works can.

The people who don't want to see it won't. since this information is not displayed for all to see, there will be no finger pointing, at least not any that wouldn't be said currently.

If someone is not pulling their weight or just plain being a slacker; you can tell it already, you don't need a meter to tell you.

GengisKahn's Avatar


GengisKahn
01.12.2012 , 10:39 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by smore View Post
You complete the flashpoint and/or your teammates don't yell at you for aggroing what you don't need to, breaking CC etc ==> you did good.

None of the above ==> you didn't do that well.

Easy.

To answer the actual question, for 'dps meters' to work, we'll need a combat log. Currently the players do not have access to it hence there are no 'meters'.
The good news is that the lead combat designer is very much aware that this is an unpleasant situation and the combat log should become available soonish.
So if i just dont move or press any button ill be fine? Since i didnt aggro anything i didnt need to and i didnt break any cc.

Jokes aside:

We need a damage meter now, not to see if anyone did good or not, but to test different builds and self-improve ourselves.

GengisKahn's Avatar


GengisKahn
01.12.2012 , 10:45 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Thankyjack View Post
DPS meters have ruined every game they have appeared in. First, they encourage people to ignore proper fight mechanics to pad numbers. So many fights have mechanics that reduce overall dps that are completely ignored by players who want to pad their DPS Meter numbers. These people universally point to their DPS numbers to justify their performance when I would much prefer that they switch targets and/or do the right thing.

Second, dps numbers do not reflect raid performance; they reflect player gear. A player who maximizes performance in lesser gear will often have less dps than a player who is average in superior gear. That is a truism in MMOs that many players simply ignore.

In PVE, you are doing well, when your team downs the content. Period.

If you really want to know how you do in comparison to others, then play PvP. That's the only meaningful way to find out how you stack up against someone else. Even then, gear plays a huge part, but a lesser geared player who is very good, will often beat a geared player who is clueless (at least more often than occurs in PVE).
Its a good thing then that many of those dps meter also show the damage taken and how did you took it, so when that dps that ignored fight mechanic says he topped it, you linked where he took unnecesary damage.

In PVE, downing the content DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE DOING FINE. That a mediocre point of view said by those that dont want to improve and are happy enough with being carried.

In PVE, you are doing fine when you do the max damage you can with your latency/reflexes/class etc.

I dont want to see if i am better than john doe, i want to see with which playstyle I PLAY BETTER.

People like you, that think comparison to others is the only thing that matters use dps meters t5o ruin games.

GengisKahn's Avatar


GengisKahn
01.12.2012 , 10:48 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Thankyjack View Post
Which came first, the chicken or the egg. WoW once had a fantastic community.

In short, the people who would use DPS meters correctly, don't need them.

Look, I am an ex-athlete and extremely competitive. I use every tool available to maximize performance and I hate DPS meters (even though I top them frequently). When you see someone top meters, take a deeper look into the interrupts they missed or the extra healing they needed or the cc they broke. DPS meters make people lose focus on the real objective.

To each his own I guess.
Damage meters were in wow since vanilla. Stop blaming bull***** to why the community in wow sucks, its not the damage meters, its not the LFD, its not anything except the people.

A good guy doesnt transform in an idiot when it installs a damage meter or press a lfd button, either already was an idiot or its not an idiot after that.

No tool destroyed any mmo, people did.

If we keep blaming tools for peoples behaviour, we would be missing the focus (which apparently is something you dont want). If you want a good community, start by being good to others yourself. If all of us do that, then there is not a single tool capable of destroying that community.

If the community sucks, it will suck no matter what tools you add or not.

Thankyjack's Avatar


Thankyjack
01.12.2012 , 10:59 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by SlickDevlan View Post
So, as an athlete that hates damage meters, I assume that you are only concerned with beating your opponent and have zero interest in finding out what your time/score/stats were... Right!?
Exactly. I played soccer, baseball and basketball in High School and NCAA D1 soccer in college. I never had any "meters" or objective metrics that would accurately portray my performance. Some games in which I scored a bunch of points, were not my best and in others, when my point totals were low, I dominated. That's the nature of team sports. Score 3 goals and lose, then you didn't do enough to get it done; score 0 and win and you may have effected facets of the game that are missed by the clueless fans.

That said, meters can be useful, but there are way too many idiots out there who misuse them. They are fine for seeing personal differences in dps between builds/gear/etc because the information is in the difference. They are useless for just about anything else. They are especially worthless for evaluating someone else's dps after a wipe. Those numbers, outside some obvious issues like someone being afk, are completely worthless. Unfortunately, that's exactly how they will be used.

As for the guy who said it's the inherent nature of the people in the community and not the tool that defines the quality of the experience, I agree with you. Still, why do the equivalent of giving an idiot a gun?

GengisKahn's Avatar


GengisKahn
01.12.2012 , 11:11 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Thankyjack View Post
Exactly. I played soccer, baseball and basketball in High School and NCAA D1 soccer in college. I never had any "meters" or objective metrics that would accurately portray my performance. Some games in which I scored a bunch of points, were not my best and in others, when my point totals were low, I dominated. That's the nature of team sports. Score 3 goals and lose, then you didn't do enough to get it done; score 0 and win and you may have effected facets of the game that are missed by the clueless fans.

That said, meters can be useful, but there are way too many idiots out there who misuse them. They are fine for seeing personal differences in dps between builds/gear/etc because the information is in the difference. They are useless for just about anything else. They are especially worthless for evaluating someone else's dps after a wipe. Those numbers, outside some obvious issues like someone being afk, are completely worthless. Unfortunately, that's exactly how they will be used.

As for the guy who said it's the inherent nature of the people in the community and not the tool that defines the quality of the experience, I agree with you. Still, why do the equivalent of giving an idiot a gun?

You seriously think, that is the game is full of idiots, you can stop the community demise just by not giving them a tool?

Can you be so naive?

If as you say there are too many idiots, we are doomed from the start, no matter what tools you give them or not.

Also, its not the equivalent of giving an idiot a gun and the fact that you used that analogy says a lot of yourself.

We need damage meters and UI mods to set the Ui as we want and not as other wanted, because not all of us like the same layouts.

Any modern MMO without that is not a serious MMO.