All the great pvpers left the game?

Oh trust me, I understand fully that everyone learns at a different pace. I'm just implying to Crin that the process of experimentation often comes with harsh penalties and requires large quantities of time.

Interesting opinion, and I am going to have to toally disagree with this. This is like saying a philosopher that reads musings and philosophy of a past philosopher can't and won't go on to write and create their own philosophies on life.

Just because life was different and the "meta" has changed, does not mean that there is nothing to be learned from those old writings.

Plenty of people read old information and go on to create newer writings that incorporate some of what they learned from past knowledge and experiences. So that's total BS.

I agree with this statement, however; the issue I have is that the you are also implying the game has remained the same over time. If you will recall the pvp mechanics pre-3.0 compared to now I am sure you will agree with me that the game required a higher level of skill to master back then. The current installation of the game is a dumbed down version of what it used to be. Pre-3.0 players who mastered their classes were truly impressive. The really great carnage marauders, pyro PTs, operative healers, hard-swap comps, etc. were immensely more impressive then the current great ones. Even if some of those great players still play, their class has been dumbed down to the point where their greatness has been diminished by how easy the classes have become. I considered myself to be one of the best carnage marauders in the game pre-3.0, this may sound cocky but I earned that by putting in hours and hours of work and competing and winning at group and solo ranked. In the current state of the game being the "greatest" anything means nothing to any of us who played the game back when it was actually challenging and not just based on how many off-heals your team has.

DIfferent time, different meta. I would argue that whether or not it means anything to the "vets who were great in their era" doesn't matter, that's just their personal opinion. In fact, you're implying that the game requires almost no skill compared to the past. Well i'm going to say that that's not true, in fact, it requires a different type of skill. It requires more situational awareness now than it did back then.

What seperates a good sorc now from a bad sorc? In my opinion, the ability to use pull effectively, the ability to know when to bubble and when to offheal vs dps, huge one here, we can now cleanse hard stuns, a good dps sorc will see a hardstun, or even better, anticipate a hardstun and cleanse it off their teammate. That in my opinion does require skill. As a Deception sin, having the ability to CC 3/4 of the enemy team correctly and effeciently requires skill.

In fact, I would argue that the classes that take the least mechanical skill, are marauders and snipers, the pure dps classes. Mechanically, it comes down to doing damage and positioning, nothing more nothing less. Take away all of the current meta issues and it boils down to just damage and positioning, because that's all that you can really effectively do as a pure dps class. Peeling as well, but I kind of assume that every player will peel, regardless of class.

In my opinion, the specs that require the most skill are the specs that have access to multiple roles, tank/dps or dps/heals. This is because they 10x greater influence than any pure dps class. The ability to skank tank and offheal is powerful, but it is still mechanically considered assisting allies, and further more if you skank tank ineffectively, you're an easy kill and your team will lose. If you offheal and do no dps, you can still lose. It's about knowing when to utilize your off-role abilities to give you a situational advantage, and then after that advantage arises, maintaining and pushing it to the victory. Too much skank tank loses a game, same with too much offhealing and no damage, From a single player, NOT multiple. Multiple has to do with class stacking, which is just design flaw.


Anyway, I'm not saying your opinion is wrong and mine is right, just saying that we share different opinions, neither of which is right or wrong. Just because 'old time vets had to walk to school and back in the snow' and don't see certain plays as requiring skill in this meta doesn't mean that it wasn't a display of skill. It just means that they have a unidimensional view of what skill is and what's required to display it.

I know when I started to play pvp in the game about 6 months after launch... The learning curve was steep... Grinding against those better players or premades actually made me a better player... The harder it was, the harder I tried... I watched what my more advanced team mates did, I asked questions, and more importantly I watched what the opposition did to me... Wether it was how they demolished me or how they countered me... After 6 months of doing this I thought I was pretty good... LOL... I guess I was average for that generation of the game... Plus I played on 17ms ping on our Australian server... So I had a bit of an advantage...
Fast forward to when Bio merged our Aussie server with the west coast and my connection jumps to 175-220ms as standard... That was a huge learning curve... Not only did I need to counter players moves... I had to anticipated and activate before they actually did anything ... Watching their buffs and debuffs basically became useless in most cases as it would already be too late when I saw those... So it took me another 6 months to basically learn to pvp again at another level of skill... A lot of what I do is guess work, but from lots of practice and experience, it's more like intuition...
My style of play is very strategic and tactical... It's the only way I can counter people with much faster connections and their ability to react in real time... My reaction speed is pretty high too because if I actually guess wrong I have to finger dance pretty quick to keep my butt from being kicked...
12 months ago I thought I was at the top of my game and had peaked... But even now I am still learning and adjusting tactics... Some of mine can seem pretty weird at times... But they normally work... I even had some guildies on board with them and people were having difficulty trying to counter them... But then they do and you have to adjust again...
Playing better players always makes you better if you learn from it... Most of the team all running off to sit at a node 2 mins into a match because the other team is better won't ever improve skill... I see this so often and I'm telling the guys to get in there and practice, watch what they do and learn... But alas, they are too timid to even try... I always keep going... Usually it's a 4v1 situation, but that's where tactics come in...
Anyway, I would say I'm a pretty good player... But if I'm still here in 6-12 months I'll be even better and find it funny how I thought I was good now... That's how it works... Practice, experience, playing better players make you better...
I really wish I could go back to 17ms now... I swear It would feel like being a pvp god... LoL

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Apples and Oranges, philosophy by nature scrutinizes past ways of thinking. People around here have difficulty making basic observations let alone approaching writing in the same way a philosopher does.


As for the rest, you're missing the point being made.
The people that "learn" from guides are the people that ask "what is the best build?"
The people that write guides are the people that ask "are you sure that's the best way?"

I see your point here, and there is some truth to what you write, but it's really dependant on who you are talking about.

Honestly, I can't agree with pigeon-holing every person who learns from a guide and every person who has written a guide. If you do that, it's not giving people enough credit who do not fit in the box you are creating with such generalized statements as the ones you wrote above.

Again, I think what you wrote above can be applied to many people, but is it the rule of thumb for ALL people? I don't think so.

Just as some people are trying to give logical explanations behind how they surmise that all the GREAT pvpers left the game. Give me a break. I believe this is false, and I also believe it's impossible to prove even if it were true.

Now, if people said, "there are LESS awesome pvpers on the game than before", yeah... I could agree with this. Why? Because we are playing the game with a much smaller population compared to earlier periods of time. Obviously, it would make sense that there are probably less skilled pvpers overall now compared to earlier times when there was a higher population on the game.

That's not what salty, jealous players write though when they read the accolades people give certain players who presently play the game. These naysayers literally say, "all the great pvpers left the game".

Its true that lots of the great old players have left the game, but there are still many round playing and returning that i have seen about. And whilst these players are still good, there are new players breaking through and holding thier own, even exceeding the skill levels of these 'old greats'.

The game and its players will evolve with a constantly changing population, whether the general skill level will increase or attenuate is open to debate upon observable fact i guess.

"All the great pvpers left the game?"

Answer WHO CARES

^^^ In a nutshell, yes this exactly.