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reverse engineering, no upgraded schems

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Crew Skills
reverse engineering, no upgraded schems

LeeLoou's Avatar


LeeLoou
08.15.2015 , 10:20 PM | #1
Why is it when I craft an item with resinite it wont give me the blue or purple upgraded schem? I tried crafting a blaster barrel and I must have RE'd 20 of them and never got the new schem, all I did was waste a bunch of resources. The items I have been crafting have a 20% chance to grant a new schem so that's 1 in 5 not 1 in 20+. I also tried crafting a chest armor piece on another toon, using resinite and same problem, no upgraded schems after 6 RE tries, also a 20% chance. That's 2 different characters, 2 different skills, both having the same problem. I am assuming the resinite has something to do with it but possibly not, it just so happens that the last 2 things I have tried to craft was using resinite, and both of them I have not been able to get an upgraded schem from. what gives?

Psychopyro's Avatar


Psychopyro
08.15.2015 , 11:32 PM | #2
Like any fake computer RNG, it's not truly random. So yes, you will have very bad streaks. There was a recipe it took me over 50 tries to get.

Also recipes that have multiple Blue/Purple/Purple, you could actually re learn one you already know. While they removed to error message (though I have seen the message pop up a couple of times lately), the ability to relearn on the roll is still there.

psandak's Avatar


psandak
08.16.2015 , 08:52 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by LeeLoou View Post
Why is it when I craft an item with resinite it wont give me the blue or purple upgraded schem? I tried crafting a blaster barrel and I must have RE'd 20 of them and never got the new schem, all I did was waste a bunch of resources. The items I have been crafting have a 20% chance to grant a new schem so that's 1 in 5 not 1 in 20+. I also tried crafting a chest armor piece on another toon, using resinite and same problem, no upgraded schems after 6 RE tries, also a 20% chance. That's 2 different characters, 2 different skills, both having the same problem. I am assuming the resinite has something to do with it but possibly not, it just so happens that the last 2 things I have tried to craft was using resinite, and both of them I have not been able to get an upgraded schem from. what gives?
20% chance does not guarantee one schematic in five attempts.

Over the VERY long haul (thousands of RE attempts), you will find that the 20% chance does translate to an average of one success in five.

Facts to realize:
  • 20% chance of success is also an 80% chance of failure; with each attempt you are four times as likely to fail as you are to succeed.
  • With this in mind, your chance of seven consecutive failures is actually better than your chance of a single success; you have a 20.97% chance of seven consecutive failures.
  • No attempt impacts the result of any other attempt; RE is a series independent trials. No matter how many attempts you make your chance to succeed is still 20% on your next attempt.

Resinite has no causal relationship, it is coincidence that the items you are struggling to get schematics for use resinite as an ingredient.

Psychopyro is also correct on both counts: no computer programmed RNG is truly random and the possibility of "learning" a schematic you already know is in the system, which in all candor is not that far from reality; think about all the times you "improved" a process or thought of a way to improve a product only to discover someone else was already doing what you thought of...
Spoiler


Lastly, how many times did you get a schematic in four or less tries before getting those bad streaks? The scales of probability are just balancing out. Having all six crafting skills and having redone two of them, I have had my share of bad failure streaks (well documented on this forum). Are they annoying? Absolutely! Is the system broken because them? Absolutely not!
The Ortzid Legacy on The Harbinger
Car'beerd (Guardian) Dalkery (Scoundrel) Blairnah (Sage) Daellia (Merc) and 11 other characters
Understanding Crew Skills / High End Schematics / Best Crew Skills / Crew Skill Money Making / Reverse Engineering Rules / SWTOR Story to date

LeeLoou's Avatar


LeeLoou
08.16.2015 , 12:50 PM | #4
I understand streaks but REing 20+ green items without a new schem is a little ridiculous. Also, the resource prices are ridiculous in this game. I use up all the stores I have trying to get to a purple and have to do more crew missions to try to get more which is another crapshoot. Was trying to get krayt dragon scales through crew missions and that's almost impossible. Also, when the mission says moderate, rich, bountiful, abundant, those terms are useless. I have sent crew members out with 10+ in a skill and one with no points in that skill and they both come back with the same amount of the same resource even though the one with no skill was sent on a moderate and the one will good skills was sent on a bountiful. Had this happen thru all missions, didn't matter what the yield they all came back with 4 units. The crafting system in this game is whacked. On 2 of my toons I didn't even bother with crew skills. I would think after 4 years they would have improved the game but I see its still mediocre at best.

psandak's Avatar


psandak
08.16.2015 , 02:14 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by LeeLoou View Post
I understand streaks but REing 20+ green items without a new schem is a little ridiculous. Also, the resource prices are ridiculous in this game. I use up all the stores I have trying to get to a purple and have to do more crew missions to try to get more which is another crapshoot. Was trying to get krayt dragon scales through crew missions and that's almost impossible. Also, when the mission says moderate, rich, bountiful, abundant, those terms are useless. I have sent crew members out with 10+ in a skill and one with no points in that skill and they both come back with the same amount of the same resource even though the one with no skill was sent on a moderate and the one will good skills was sent on a bountiful. Had this happen thru all missions, didn't matter what the yield they all came back with 4 units. The crafting system in this game is whacked. On 2 of my toons I didn't even bother with crew skills. I would think after 4 years they would have improved the game but I see its still mediocre at best.
There are two types of crew skill bonuses: critical and efficiency. All efficiency does is reduce the time it takes to complete the mission. the +10 you mentioned is definitely efficiency because there are no +crit bonuses higher than +5. Furthermore, there are two other factors that impact critical success chance (what you need to get purple materials from mission skills):
  • the mission title text color determines the "difficulty" of the mission - orange color title text means that the mission has a baseline 10% chance to crit; Yellow, Green, or Gray title text means that the mission has a baseline 15% chance to crit.
  • companion affection improves a specific companion's ability to perform crew skills. The companion affection scale is 0 to 10,000. For every 2,000 that a given companion has that companion gets a +1% critical success bonus; 0-1999 is 0% 2000-3999 is +1% etc. up to a max of +5% with 10,000 affection (aka "max affection").

The only impact the various levels of missions (moderate, abundant, bountiful, and rich) has is the amount of materials returned. Rich missions yield the largest amount of materials, moderate the least. If you critically succeed running a rich mission you should get 3-5 Krayt Dragon Scales. If you critically succeed running a moderate mission you will only get 1 Krayt Dragon Scale.

All that being said, with the best possible companion running a specific mission that he/she/it has a crit bonus in, your chance to crit is only 25%. You are three times as likely to not get a crit as you are to get one.

Lastly, all of the above and the fact that you do outgrow gear while leveling rather quickly (even without the 12x XP that is going on right now), most veteran crafters stick with blue quality equipment; if we have purple materials and a good schematic we use it but few of us actively seek purple schematics and gear while leveling...too frustrating.
The Ortzid Legacy on The Harbinger
Car'beerd (Guardian) Dalkery (Scoundrel) Blairnah (Sage) Daellia (Merc) and 11 other characters
Understanding Crew Skills / High End Schematics / Best Crew Skills / Crew Skill Money Making / Reverse Engineering Rules / SWTOR Story to date

MSchuyler's Avatar


MSchuyler
08.16.2015 , 02:24 PM | #6
It is not "Whacked." You just don't understand it and refuse to accept it. For example, the "+10" you are referring to does NOT increase yield; it is simply a factor of time. A companion with +10 efficiency works a little faster than one that does not have it. That's all. The number that DOES give you a bit better chance is called "crit" and it is usually a +2 or +5 which, expressed as a percentage, means your companion may get a better result (He may "crit") 2% better than a companion that does not have the ability. As I understand it, a companion gains a "+1 crit" for every 2000 of affection he has, though this never shows. Psandak can check me on this.

In terms of the system being "random" it is and, has been explained to you, that DOES NOT MEAN you get a schematic 1 out of 5 times. That is an extremely simplistic way of looking at the issue. In statistical terms, what this means is that you are likely to get a schematic between 4 and 6 tries 68% of the time and likely to get it between 1 and 10 times about 97% of the time. My numbers are probably a bit off because this is from memory (my intent was to show 1 and 2 standard deviations from the mean), but that's the general idea. But even at 97% of the time there is PLENTY of room for you to try 20 times and not get it.

"Chance" works like that statistically and your experience is not at all out of the norm. You silently clap and are happy when you get it in one, then you forget about it, but if it takes you 20 times you remember it. IF YOU KEPT accurate records over a long period of time you would find that you get a schematic, on average, one out of 5 times. Period.

Now, this idea that computers do not actually produce pure randomness is correct. They use a "Psuedo-random number generator" that uses an algorithm and a "seed" number to produce this pseudo-randomness. But don't try to hang on to this truth and bandy it about as proof that the computer RNG is "not correct" It's only "pseudo" compared to pure mathematics. Practically speaking, you could not measure the difference between "True" and "pseudo" RNG. In fact, the same pseudo RNG is used in cryptography where the stakes are much higher than a game.

Blaming the game here or blaming PRNG is not an argument. It's working as intended.

Edit to add: Psandak and I must have been writing at the same time. 2.) None of this discussion of "crit" percentages or efficiency has anything at all to do with Reverse Engineering per se. Those things apply to companion activities. When you Reverse Engineer something, your toon is doing it alone and companions are not involved. Most everything is rated at 20%, but there are a few that are 10%.
In America the young are always ready to give to those who are older than themselves the full benefits of their inexperience. -- Oscar Wilde

LeeLoou's Avatar


LeeLoou
08.18.2015 , 06:53 PM | #7
it all just goes to show how pointless crafting is in this game. You have to spend all your creds either on resources from the GTN or on crew missions in hopes of getting the resources you need but you end up spending the majority of them on companion gift missions because they wont give you more than 2-3 resource missions before it fills up with companion missions again. By the time you actually get all the resources needed to craft and RE the item you want then you no longer need it because you have leveled past it. No need to post anymore as I wont be checking this anymore. Ive stopped crafting and selling all my resources, its a credit suck so I don't see the point anymore.

psandak's Avatar


psandak
08.18.2015 , 07:23 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by LeeLoou View Post
it all just goes to show how pointless crafting is in this game. You have to spend all your creds either on resources from the GTN or on crew missions in hopes of getting the resources you need but you end up spending the majority of them on companion gift missions because they wont give you more than 2-3 resource missions before it fills up with companion missions again. By the time you actually get all the resources needed to craft and RE the item you want then you no longer need it because you have leveled past it. No need to post anymore as I wont be checking this anymore. Ive stopped crafting and selling all my resources, its a credit suck so I don't see the point anymore.
I know exactly what you are going through because I went through it too. When I first started playing I had a Jedi Knight with Synthweaving, Archaeology, and Underworld Trading. I started leveling my crafting at the earliest possible moment...and I was ALWAYS broke because of it. I HAD to run every space combat mission I could EVERY day just to feed my "crafting habit" (back then those were the only "daily quests" available). This was also a time when ability training cost credits and speeder piloting was CRAZY expensive (I could not "afford" speeder piloting II until I was level 50 and had done Black Hole dailies a LOT. I did not even get speeder piloting III until Campaign gear was available). Heck there were times I had to train only selected abilities (that I used regularly) because I could not afford to train everything.

So I COMPLETELY understand your frustration. Which is why I have said it many times on these forums: my advice to new players is to NOT craft anything because it is a significant credit sink. The reason is simple: if you want to craft equipment that your character can use while leveling, you MUST level your crew skills at a faster rate than you level the character so...
  1. you have time to craft and RE for better schematics
  2. and so you have time to acquire the needed materials for those better schematics
  3. and can therefore have the equipment waiting for you when you reach the appropriate level.

This requires running missions, which requires credits. And when you go looking for a specific schematic the system is even more frustrating.

OTOH, if you forgo crafting while leveling your first character and do what I recommend - taking two gathering skills and slicing - you can make a significant amount of credits while leveling and buy some of the stuff you really want off the GTN (again my advice is don't do that either as buying equipment off the GTN only makes the game that much easier; there is nothing you NEED in order to progress through the leveling process), and/or you can save your credits and/or materials to establish a crafting skill later...so you can supply crafted goods to your next character.
The Ortzid Legacy on The Harbinger
Car'beerd (Guardian) Dalkery (Scoundrel) Blairnah (Sage) Daellia (Merc) and 11 other characters
Understanding Crew Skills / High End Schematics / Best Crew Skills / Crew Skill Money Making / Reverse Engineering Rules / SWTOR Story to date

MSchuyler's Avatar


MSchuyler
08.19.2015 , 12:43 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by psandak View Post
..so you can supply crafted goods to your next character.
That's the key right there, IMHO. It's a lot easier to gather for the next guy down the line. And with 12XP, Good Lord! My gathering has gone from good to impossible. As a result, my toons are a lot poorer at higher levels. They've been kept in good gear by the older crafters (since comms don't buy you everything.)

Unless she is as easily frustrated with the rest of the game as she is with crafting, she'll be back. Crafting is too lucrative and helpful to ignore it forever.
In America the young are always ready to give to those who are older than themselves the full benefits of their inexperience. -- Oscar Wilde