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Probabilities mean nothing - RE still needs fix

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Crew Skills
Probabilities mean nothing - RE still needs fix

Overmind's Avatar


Overmind
05.28.2015 , 01:38 AM | #141
Nice to see people getting good results.

NomadWan's Avatar


NomadWan
08.09.2015 , 04:06 AM | #142
I feel the crafting system is actually very poorly done, so many things they can streamline and better, I could get eg. overkill, critical but I am actually after the redoubt of an item. Currently I am trying to get this item to proc but no luck after more than 23 items made and REd, still no joy, I swear the crafting system regards the ones I have of this item i.e. the overkill or cirtical as successful RE each time meaning that it doesnt remove say overkill or crit from the list of procs I could have. so I could in actual fact have procced 5x already in the 23 attempts but never knew it since I already had those schems learned...from the lack of effort I have seen from EA to fix old issue in this game I would not be surprised if this is the case.

When will they revamp this crafting system, I mean I should have higher odds of proccing an item the better I am at the skill, it just stays the same and all the level determines really is your ability to craft the item in the first place, when REd should also benefit from your ability to craft it in the first place, instead of 20% (which isnt 20% im sure) to 30% or much more depending on your skill.

e.g. if you at lvl 400 crafting and your max for that range is 450, then at 450 you should have a higher chance to REd anything you could make from 400->450.

EDIT: Just FYI the item I am trying to get a blue of and I have had no variants yet of this particular item, so I am facing very bad odds if I have have procced so many greens and not one blue yet, forget the correct blue, farming takes ages, RE'd is just completely screwed, I get working hard for something but this is rediculous already, give me a damn achievement and call it "the stupidly tenacious"

I can think of a **** ton more things EA should do to make the crafting better. Many cosmetic but we love little details, I would for one love to have a wookiee strap on so goggles and blowtorch to farm a dead droid...those things are imo what makes the player feel there has been effort made...not just some Star Trek scanner doing all the work each time (but this is a cosmetic gripe)

EXTRA: Give us rare schems that are dropped in world or more, from mobs, from raids (I hate to say this but yes more like WoW use to be) and no I am not interested in playing WoW again but Blizzard did do some good things, don't reinvent the wheel use good mechanism and apply them, people like that kind of thing
Peace is a lie, because we all really just want to kill something

psandak's Avatar


psandak
08.09.2015 , 08:42 AM | #143
Quote: Originally Posted by NomadWan View Post
I feel the crafting system is actually very poorly done, so many things they can streamline and better, I could get eg. overkill, critical but I am actually after the redoubt of an item. Currently I am trying to get this item to proc but no luck after more than 23 items made and REd, still no joy, I swear the crafting system regards the ones I have of this item i.e. the overkill or cirtical as successful RE each time meaning that it doesnt remove say overkill or crit from the list of procs I could have. so I could in actual fact have procced 5x already in the 23 attempts but never knew it since I already had those schems learned...from the lack of effort I have seen from EA to fix old issue in this game I would not be surprised if this is the case.
The fact is that 23 consecutive failures is not statistically impossible; the chance while small, is not beyond the realm of probability...0.6%; 6 in 1000 trials will encounter a streak of 23 failures.

Question: how many times did you get a schematic in one or two attempts when by probability they should have procced on the fifth? 20% is 1 in 5 after all. You are focusing on one bad streak. I too have had my share of bad streaks, and you know what...**** happens. The point is you need to remember the good and the bad equally. For example: while leveling armstech, on my first two items I crafted I got successful REs in three tries (that's first try success on one item and second try success on the other), but later on I had a streak of 42 failures across three items. I remember both events equally vividly.

Point of fact: the system did at one point consider schematics you already had as "success". Back then you would get a message across the screen saying "you already have that schematic." The message does not happen anymore, so we can infer that aspect of the system was "corrected." (from a pessimistic standpoint one can say that all they did was hide the message, but I am an optimist )

Quote: Originally Posted by NomadWan View Post
When will they revamp this crafting system, I mean I should have higher odds of proccing an item the better I am at the skill, it just stays the same and all the level determines really is your ability to craft the item in the first place, when REd should also benefit from your ability to craft it in the first place, instead of 20% (which isnt 20% im sure) to 30% or much more depending on your skill.
Reverse Engineering is not about crafting, it is about realizing the potential for improvement. Edison went through a thousand iterations of the light bulb before hitting on a workable design. No matter how skilled a craftsman is, it takes time and effort to improve upon a given design. RE is the game mechanic that represents that time and effort. With any specific item, for some inspiration strikes fast, for others it takes longer, but over the course of many items, the rate of "inspiration" works out to be the same for all

Quote: Originally Posted by NomadWan View Post
EXTRA: Give us rare schems that are dropped in world or more, from mobs, from raids (I hate to say this but yes more like WoW use to be) and no I am not interested in playing WoW again but Blizzard did do some good things, don't reinvent the wheel use good mechanism and apply them, people like that kind of thing
I am not so sure players like random drop schematics as much as you think. Getting one is neat, but for someone who actively seeks a random drop schematic..../shudder. The odds are typically VERY small and those who seek it invariably compete with those who want it too and therefore even when the schematic one wants drops there is the risk that someone else will get it. The "solution" is to increase the drop rate, but then the schematic drops too often, eventually everyone has it and it becomes vendor fodder; the intent - being a special snowflake - of those random drops is broken
The Ortzid Legacy on The Harbinger
Car'beerd (Guardian) Dalkery (Scoundrel) Blairnah (Sage) Daellia (Merc) and 11 other characters
Understanding Crew Skills / High End Schematics / Best Crew Skills / Crew Skill Money Making / Reverse Engineering Rules / SWTOR Story to date

NomadWan's Avatar


NomadWan
08.09.2015 , 09:11 AM | #144
Thanks for your reply, I can understand where you coming from and appreciate it, but I am sure you can also appreciate the "idea" I am after and that some work into the crafting mechanism is considered, while REs may not be part of the crafting system per say...it is also not something you can remove from crafting and use, imo its fundamental but I am sure you agree on that. All I am saying is that if my toon becomes better at crafting a thing he could learn to craft a better one from crafting a single one or from RE one, ultimately there is room for improvement and for me much needed improvement.

I am also more optimistic and try and compare with the best, but that does leave some desired concepts and redesign even if it is just the sorting of the mission levels, having mission levels shown as eg. 10-16 or 41-48 but the missions you can get or buy have level numbers like 150 or 250, for sake of confusion as I am probably not very bright just make it all the same plz. Give me a toggle option to sort according to level and keep it there, instead of having it close and I have to go through the motions again. Larger companion job ques etc.

But mostly just give me revamped RE, make it as I said, crafting an item systematically makes that I could proc a better one and RE one the same, the more I have build or RE just gives me a multiplier that gives better odds of getting a proc, same with skill level if I am 50 point over the skill it takes to craft that item give me higher chance of getting the blue/purple etc

I don't think it will break the game and any improvement is...well an improvement
Peace is a lie, because we all really just want to kill something

psandak's Avatar


psandak
08.09.2015 , 10:06 AM | #145
Quote: Originally Posted by NomadWan View Post
All I am saying is that if my toon becomes better at crafting a thing he could learn to craft a better one from crafting a single one or from RE one
I would agree with that statement if crafting was something a character could fully dedicate to. The fact is that crew skills is little more than a set of hobbies and/or secondaries skills for your character's posse (remember it is your companions that do all the work). Game mechanically, you - the character - take 4 seconds to disassemble a crafted item and try to learn something from it, but the virtual reality of the system is that one or more of your team spends time creating something over and over trying to improve upon it.

That being said, there are apparently "changes" coming to SWTOR crafting. No idea what they are as the dev team is being excruciatingly tight lipped. Wait and see.

Quote: Originally Posted by NomadWan View Post
But mostly just give me revamped RE, make it as I said, crafting an item systematically makes that I could proc a better one and RE one the same, the more I have build or RE just gives me a multiplier that gives better odds of getting a proc, same with skill level if I am 50 point over the skill it takes to craft that item give me higher chance of getting the blue/purple etc

I don't think it will break the game and any improvement is...well an improvement
A system of increasing chance of success has been discussed ad nauseum here and the biggest issue is how fast? If one is guaranteed success after five attempts, then there might as well be a system where you craft five turn them in somewhere and get a schematic back. If it is in small increments - say 1% or 2% - the risk of long failure streaks remains. The option I came up with was reduce the base chance to 10% and increase by 4% increments. This maintains a close to 20% overall success rate but caps the failure steaks to the mid teens. The problem I have with that system is that it reduces the chance of early success:

with the system as is there is an inverse exponential curve where the best chance of success is in fact on your first attempt; the likelihood of first attempt success is greater than any other.

with the system of base 10% and 4% increments there is a positive skewed bell curve where the best chance of success falls between three and four attempts; the likelihood of 3.5 attempts success is greater than any other.

So the question is are players OK with having to craft more to succeed, but knowing there is a limit on failure?
The Ortzid Legacy on The Harbinger
Car'beerd (Guardian) Dalkery (Scoundrel) Blairnah (Sage) Daellia (Merc) and 11 other characters
Understanding Crew Skills / High End Schematics / Best Crew Skills / Crew Skill Money Making / Reverse Engineering Rules / SWTOR Story to date

NomadWan's Avatar


NomadWan
08.09.2015 , 10:41 AM | #146
You make some good points, I think we agree in large part I hope the developers pay attention to these threads and hopefully come up with some changes, maybe even make crafting a larger part of the game.
Peace is a lie, because we all really just want to kill something

asbalana's Avatar


asbalana
08.09.2015 , 01:42 PM | #147
Quote: Originally Posted by psandak View Post

Point of fact: the system did at one point consider schematics you already had as "success". Back then you would get a message across the screen saying "you already have that schematic." The message does not happen anymore, so we can infer that aspect of the system was "corrected." (from a pessimistic standpoint one can say that all they did was hide the message, but I am an optimist )
LOL, nope. Got the message a few days ago. Nothing in SWTOR is ever really / permanently fixed.

NomadWan's Avatar


NomadWan
08.09.2015 , 02:58 PM | #148
and here i was optimistic also...damnit, really hope these guys pull their thumbs out their asses and get some fundamental things fixed, no point building off shaky foundations...not like that care much imo...
Peace is a lie, because we all really just want to kill something

asbalana's Avatar


asbalana
08.09.2015 , 03:13 PM | #149
Quote: Originally Posted by NomadWan View Post
and here i was optimistic also...damnit, really hope these guys pull their thumbs out their asses and get some fundamental things fixed, no point building off shaky foundations...not like that care much imo...
But theyz gotz storyz.

Just encounted a bug that was there at launch. LOL.