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3.2.1 Marauder/Sentinel Insight: Defensive Forms

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sentinel / Marauder
3.2.1 Marauder/Sentinel Insight: Defensive Forms
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JohnJarynowski's Avatar


JohnJarynowski
05.06.2015 , 08:42 AM | #1 This is the last staff post in this thread.  
Hey everyone,

Weíve been following the discussions regarding the Annihilation/Watchman changes since the last PTS patch, and I wanted to take a moment to lend some insight on a few points and discuss potential improvements. We will start by discussing the 3.2.1 changes to Defensive Forms.

Defensive Forms:

We know that this has been a sensitive topic for some time and found it pertinent to reassess the Utility and expand its functionality. By dividing the original buffs among multiple Utilities and removing the stance requirement, we aim to bolster the intrigue of other Utilities and provide the opportunity for all Disciplines and stances to utilize these defensive and utility buffs as they see fit.

We understand that many of you have been calling for Defensive Forms to be made baseline, but we need to maintain choice within the Utility system. The three previously Form-restricted effects tied to the original Defensive Forms (damage reduction, internal and elemental damage reduction, and movement speed) are all great defensive and utility skills that should be player driven options in the Utility system. While the Fury/Centering generation applied by Defensive Forms (and the new Brazen/Stoic) improves the DPS and defensive output of Marauders/Sentinels who are being actively attacked, it does nothing for those who are avoiding damage or attention and allowing their team/companions to draw the targetís ire. Due to this fact, we are leaving this Fury/Centering generation skill as a player choice and not moving it to a class-baseline passive.

We will be releasing threads concerning Marauder/Sentinel updates over the next few hours in stages. They will offer insight on Annihilation/Watch Rotation changes, Hungering/Merciless Zeal changes, and an open address on improving set bonuses to reduce their impact on limiting rotation flexibility. We are staggering the release of these posts to allow you all time to respond on individual topics and keep the discussions focused.

Cheers, all!
John
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znihilist's Avatar


znihilist
05.06.2015 , 08:57 AM | #2
John,

I know you guys mean well, but for the love of everything that is good can you guys stop doing that ?
We need you to tell us about potential changes beforehand. I know you guys been reading the feedback and probably implementing your variations of the ideas presented in the various threads. But the way you were handling things in the last couple of PTS periods have been very bad. If you want to change something please tell us that you are thinking about that and wait till we offer some feedback. You guys implemented the worst changes possible to the Annihilation rotation without asking a single member of the community what they thought, and worse you then disappeared and let the changes coming online and didn't even offer a single sentence of feedback in the thread. Even if you think whatever we as a community has agreed upon is crazy, tell us you think it is crazy let us come up with alternatives.

Atlanis's Avatar


Atlanis
05.06.2015 , 09:09 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by JohnJarynowski View Post
Hey everyone,

Weíve been following the discussions regarding the Annihilation/Watchman changes since the last PTS patch, and I wanted to take a moment to lend some insight on a few points and discuss potential improvements. We will start by discussing the 3.2.1 changes to Defensive Forms.

Defensive Forms:

We know that this has been a sensitive topic for some time and found it pertinent to reassess the Utility and expand its functionality. By dividing the original buffs among multiple Utilities and removing the stance requirement, we aim to bolster the intrigue of other Utilities and provide the opportunity for all Disciplines and stances to utilize these defensive and utility buffs as they see fit.

We understand that many of you have been calling for Defensive Forms to be made baseline, but we need to maintain choice within the Utility system. The three previously Form-restricted effects tied to the original Defensive Forms (damage reduction, internal and elemental damage reduction, and movement speed) are all great defensive and utility skills that should be player driven options in the Utility system. While the Fury/Centering generation applied by Defensive Forms (and the new Brazen/Stoic) improves the DPS and defensive output of Marauders/Sentinels who are being actively attacked, it does nothing for those who are avoiding damage or attention and allowing their team/companions to draw the targetís ire. Due to this fact, we are leaving this Fury/Centering generation skill as a player choice and not moving it to a class-baseline passive.

We will be releasing threads concerning Marauder/Sentinel updates over the next few hours in stages. They will offer insight on Annihilation/Watch Rotation changes, Hungering/Merciless Zeal changes, and an open address on improving set bonuses to reduce their impact on limiting rotation flexibility. We are staggering the release of these posts to allow you all time to respond on individual topics and keep the discussions focused.

Cheers, all!
John
Basicly a big blablabla. Shut up. You are fine and have no place in this discussion.

Srry, if myself, Norton (mutual hate relationship), Adrell (mutual hate relationship) and almost all other Sentinel / Marauder players with the highest playtime and experience agree on somethin it should be a no brainer to implement it as we demand it. Last time I looke you made sure that as of 3.2.1. (if you donīt MASSIVLY overhaul 3.2.1. before going live) there will be no option to participate in hardmode, that is something WE ALL AGREE ON.

Srry, I advise you to get those engaged dozen Sent/Maras into a conference with the people working on the Sentinel/Marauder. You can be sure we are just as concerned about overall balance as you are and are far more experieneced on synergies of combat etc. aka the flow of PvP and PvE. It could really help to build trust to implement stuff all major contributers from the Classcommunity agree on into the game.

P.S.: Cologne Community Cantina is in August, make sure you get the stuff fixed far before then.

P.S.S.: As your CS will tell you my subscription has been cancelled for the first time since this game launched. Its a symbolic cancel as I have GTCs around and a guild that depends on my chancelorship.

DynamiCtagez's Avatar


DynamiCtagez
05.06.2015 , 09:14 AM | #4
Please please please please, LISTEN to the community. It seems you are trying to prove something by trying to address some of the issues the class has by coming up with entirely new things that nobody asked for. Like you're trying to say: "Ha, we don't need you!"
But this doesn't work.
It is never ever ever ever, in NO SCENARIO possible to NOT take Stoic without being at a huge disadvantage. It is an absolute must-have for every spec in every possible scenario. No matter if PvP or PvE. I think EVERY single Mara/Sent who has any experience with this game will agree on this.
Secondly, by spreading out a single utility into multiple different ones you are NERFING the class in PvP. No beating around the bush, it's a straight up nerf. You're kicking a class in the face that's already down.
No Marauder who has the slightest clue what he's doing will take Defensive Roll or Force Fade in PvP when he can have Ardor, Incisor or Displacement. Literally never. So we're losing these benefits.

Please explain: Why do Juggernauts have their Single Saber Mastery baseline, while we have to spent a utility point on absolute must-haves?

LISTEN to us. Some of us play the class since release, some of us are in top tier PvE or PvP guilds, having spent years playing this class. I've been PvPing with it since the start of the game, ranked and unranked, and I've always been successful with this class. Since 3.0 this class has become nearly useless in solo ranked and entirely useless in group ranked against any team of equal skill.

The self heal buff is actually a nerf. Not only that, you are homogenizing this class with other DoT classes. Even though the community has been repeating over and over we DON'T want that.
Just give us back our old 2% on crits. This gives us more control over WHEN we want to be healed and keeps a UNIQUE aspect to this class.
Please, why are you trying to completely change things that have been working for so long?
You're kicking and beating this class over and over. Your buffs are nerfs. You ignore most of our feedback. Why? Just tell us WHY?

Nepthen's Avatar


Nepthen
05.06.2015 , 09:16 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by JohnJarynowski View Post
While the Fury/Centering generation applied by Defensive Forms (and the new Brazen/Stoic) improves the DPS and defensive output of Marauders/Sentinels who are being actively attacked, it does nothing for those who are avoiding damage or attention and allowing their team/companions to draw the targetís ire. Due to this fact, we are leaving this Fury/Centering generation skill as a player choice and not moving it to a class-baseline passive.
I fail to see this is a true choice... with so much unavoidable damage going out in PvE (and no one can avoid all damage in PvP), why wouldn't you take this utility? Add in the 2% damage reduction that comes with the new Stoic utility and it makes even more sense to always have it.

Sorry, I just don't buy it.
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waterboytkd's Avatar


waterboytkd
05.06.2015 , 09:16 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by JohnJarynowski View Post
We understand that many of you have been calling for Defensive Forms to be made baseline, but we need to maintain choice within the Utility system...While the Fury/Centering generation applied by Defensive Forms (and the new Brazen/Stoic) improves the DPS and defensive output of Marauders/Sentinels who are being actively attacked, it does nothing for those who are avoiding damage or attention and allowing their team/companions to draw the targetís ire. Due to this fact, we are leaving this Fury/Centering generation skill as a player choice and not moving it to a class-baseline passive.
John, the only player that this MIGHT apply to is the Sent/Mara who primarily does Op runs. Anyone running PvP, and anyone running Dailies or leveling content, is getting attacked constantly, and, as many have said (including big Sent/Mara names like Oofalong, Emperor-Norton, et al), it's not really a choice. It's practically mandatory to take.

I like the idea of moving the stance bonuses out and into other utilities to spice them up, but the Centering/Fury building in a utility is essentially a utility tax for us. We get one less utility because core functionality requires that ability.

If you're worried about holes cropping up in our utility tree, check out this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=809708

Though I presented as a sweeping overhaul of the class, it could easily be seen as a collection of ideas to be used by you guys. If you read it, you'll even see that I kept the Stance-based bonuses in the utilities (not tied to stances, just dispersed onto different utilities), but the Centering/Fury building was moved to baseline.

PLEASE, reconsider this stance on the Centering/Fury building.

And take a look at that thread. It may have some ideas you'll like for the class.
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MorgenBlue's Avatar


MorgenBlue
05.06.2015 , 09:17 AM | #7
While yes the utility system should be offering you interesting choices we only have so many utility points. If the class can't be competitive because we don't have enough utility points to take all the utilities to make it so then perhaps you need to take a look at it again?

Looking forward to the Annihilation rotation post where you tell us that you aren't going to change it back and that you don't care about the community says to.

Atlanis's Avatar


Atlanis
05.06.2015 , 09:25 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by DynamiCtagez View Post
Please please please please, LISTEN to the community. It seems you are trying to prove something by trying to address some of the issues the class has by coming up with entirely new things that nobody asked for. Like you're trying to say: "Ha, we don't need you!"
But this doesn't work.
It is never ever ever ever, in NO SCENARIO possible to NOT take Stoic without being at a huge disadvantage. It is an absolute must-have for every spec in every possible scenario. No matter if PvP or PvE. I think EVERY single Mara/Sent who has any experience with this game will agree on this.
Secondly, by spreading out a single utility into multiple different ones you are NERFING the class in PvP. No beating around the bush, it's a straight up nerf. You're kicking a class in the face that's already down.
No Marauder who has the slightest clue what he's doing will take Defensive Roll or Force Fade in PvP when he can have Ardor, Incisor or Displacement. Literally never. So we're losing these benefits.

Please explain: Why do Juggernauts have their Single Saber Mastery baseline, while we have to spent a utility point on absolute must-haves?

LISTEN to us. Some of us play the class since release, some of us are in top tier PvE or PvP guilds, having spent years playing this class. I've been PvPing with it since the start of the game, ranked and unranked, and I've always been successful with this class. Since 3.0 this class has become nearly useless in solo ranked and entirely useless in group ranked against any team of equal skill.

The self heal buff is actually a nerf. Not only that, you are homogenizing this class with other DoT classes. Even though the community has been repeating over and over we DON'T want that.
Just give us back our old 2% on crits. This gives us more control over WHEN we want to be healed and keeps a UNIQUE aspect to this class.
Please, why are you trying to completely change things that have been working for so long?
You're kicking and beating this class over and over. You buffs are nerfs. You ignore most of our feedback. Why? Just tell us WHY?
/signed

You said everything constructive I had no freaking motivation to post.

SeanFM's Avatar


SeanFM
05.06.2015 , 09:32 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by JohnJarynowski View Post
found it pertinent to reassess the Utility and expand its functionality. By dividing the original buffs among multiple Utilities and removing the stance requirement, we aim to bolster the intrigue of other Utilities and provide the opportunity for all Disciplines and stances to utilize these defensive and utility buffs as they see fit.
This is not having the effect you seem to want. The reason we take Defensive forms as a utility is for Centering. If you are doing PvP without this utility you are doing it wrong. That's not an exaggeration. The spec specific bonuses are nice but they are just that: bonuses. By taking things away from this utility we need to take more utilities to get the same functionality. This is the opposite of what we want. The utilities that we need for PvP/mobility are too high up and we can't get enough of them as it is. The reason we want Defensive Forms to be passive is too free up utility points!
Quote: Originally Posted by JohnJarynowski View Post
We understand that many of you have been calling for Defensive Forms to be made baseline, but we need to maintain choice within the Utility system.
Having the centering part of Defensive Forms as a utility is not having choice. This utility is MANDATORY for PvP.
Quote: Originally Posted by JohnJarynowski View Post
While the Fury/Centering generation applied by Defensive Forms (and the new Brazen/Stoic) improves the DPS and defensive output of Marauders/Sentinels who are being actively attacked, it does nothing for those who are avoiding damage or attention and allowing their team/companions to draw the targetís ire.
I thought utilities were meant to be... utilities. Not something that is needed for optimum DPS output. The only time a Sentinel is not taking damage is going to be in an Operation fight. The rest of the time your DPS will be severely gimped without this utility. Again, this utility is not a choice. It is required.
Quote: Originally Posted by JohnJarynowski View Post
Due to this fact, we are leaving this Fury/Centering generation skill as a player choice and not moving it to a class-baseline passive.
Thank you for releasing another post and for explaining why you're doing what you're doing but... no... just no. Please listen to us. This is not what Sentinels need right now. Utilities need changing but not like this. Please.
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oofalong's Avatar


oofalong
05.06.2015 , 09:41 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by JohnJarynowski View Post

...

Defensive Forms:

We know that this has been a sensitive topic for some time and found it pertinent to reassess the Utility and expand its functionality. By dividing the original buffs among multiple Utilities and removing the stance requirement, we aim to bolster the intrigue of other Utilities and provide the opportunity for all Disciplines and stances to utilize these defensive and utility buffs as they see fit.

*snip*
I believe I understand what you are trying to do here. Which is take what is essentially a required utility skill and break up its utility to strengthen other utility choices. Since the utility skills are supposed to provide choice to the player, having something that is required is wrong. In other words Defensive Forms was too strong.

First off, the much of the pushback you are getting on this change is due to the reality that nothing about Maras/Sents is too strong given the current meta.

Next, Fury | Centering is so closely tied to our ability to deal damage that having it as a utility seems wrong; it's essential. Said another way, we are a pure DPS class, and melee DPS at that. Thus, we have to be in melee range to deal damage, which means we are unable to avoid much AoE damage.

In effect, your change to Defensive Forums neutered a required utility that is still required. Thus, we are comparatively weaker now than previously.
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Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
You are correct Oofalong.