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Update on Sentinel and Marauder

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sentinel / Marauder
Update on Sentinel and Marauder
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Wriwnas's Avatar


Wriwnas
04.08.2015 , 04:55 AM | #221
Quote: Originally Posted by Aluvi View Post
(...)
With that said, I cannot continue to pay for a subscription on a game where I so strongly disagree with the developers on core design and balance philosophy (balancing around an "average" of metrics, rather than class performance at peak levels). (...)
I disagree with nearly everything that BioWare has done in the development of 3.0 and onward. PvP balance and design, class changes, PvE encounters that overly favor ranged classes and harshly punish melee, etc. That doesn't mean that those choices were wrong, because hey, what do I know, I'm just an IT guy that is also a very hardcore gamer, and SWTOR happens to be the game that I am most passionate about. But I cannot continue to support a company with whom I so strongly disagree in terms of their design and balance philosophy. At the end of the day, the only tool that I have to show my discontent with these decisions is the unsubscribe button. I'm going to uninstall so that I'm not tempted to come back any time soon. I still feel such a great attachment to my Marauder. I want to play him so badly. I want him to be good and competitive, like he used to be. If I leave the game installed, I will get that itch eventually, and I'll come back and think "maybe it will be better this time, I'll do OK in arenas", only to have my heart ripped out again when I lose another 10 games in a row, and my team tells me that I shouldn't be queuing for Ranked on a Marauder.
It's with a heavy heart that I leave my favorite game of the past 3 years for good.
May the force be with you all.
^^What he said... I feel what he feels and I am afraid that I will do what he did...
May The Force be with you Aluvi, may you never start to play an EA game ever again... I sure wont.

PS.
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jcurri's Avatar


jcurri
04.08.2015 , 06:56 AM | #222
Quote: Originally Posted by K_osss View Post
I got "No plan to increase damage output directly, but we are looking at self-healing and more mobility internally" out of this. I don't think damage needs addressed. It's fine.

I'm more about QoL around Contemplation being made a passive for all Sentinels/Maruaders. Defensive forms being made passive and replaced by something and a mobility improvement possibly at the Masterful or Skillful tier. That's my wish list. Damage is ok in the PvP theatre.

Thanks for sharing this information Eric. I think you guys are on the right track!
Basically my thoughts as well.
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Skettitangles's Avatar


Skettitangles
04.08.2015 , 08:04 AM | #223
Anyone with a Shadow should q ranked now. Skew those ranked metrics right out of whack

Costello's Avatar


Costello
04.08.2015 , 09:35 AM | #224
It seems like people that don't want a dps increase just want an increase on time on target so you do the same dps on live targets as you do on the training dummy.

Its never going to happen that mobility will allow this. The only way this would happen is if there are unlimited unbreakable CC's that make everyone and raid bosses as static as the dummy. Since this would cause everyone that isn't mdps to go mad and not to mention allow for some serious kiting its never going to happen. There is a limit to how far mobility can take you and after that dps has to be worked out taking into consideration time off target.

If you can only attack a target 75% of the time cause for 25% you can't get close enough dps has to be 125% of the target when attacking the dummy.

And I am sure there are PvPers that find the stun lock and routes etc to be the most annoying thing in the world as they can't even attack rdps. And this is very true but don't think that once you can get on target for 50 to 60 percent of the fight due to more mobility that you wont just get destroyed by that assassin who just has far superior dps.

To think that everything can be solved by a little bit more mobility and some tweak to a utility or two reducing the cool down on unbound or some such is naive to the extreme. And should the devs take notice and make this change it wont change the experience of being owned in PvP.

Kakisback's Avatar


Kakisback
04.08.2015 , 09:52 AM | #225
Quote: Originally Posted by Aluvi View Post
Thank you very much for the update, Eric. I don't agree with what the devs have said (and I realize that you are just the mouthpiece, not the opinion itself), but I want to convey that not being kept in the dark on the matter is extremely appreciated.

Just because my opinion is different, doesn't mean that the devs are wrong. It could very likely be a "learn 2 play" issue on my part, or it could just be severely bad luck that I have lost close to 80% of my first 30 solo ranked games this season on my marauder, and they almost all had 2-3 marauders in them, while my shadow has an 80%+ win rating. That said, I do believe that your team is balancing things as best as they can, based on their own internal metrics, however flawed I may think that system for balancing may be.

What I am most thankful for is the increase in communication of the problem and the expected resolutions... or lack thereof.

With that said, I cannot continue to pay for a subscription on a game where I so strongly disagree with the developers on core design and balance philosophy (balancing around an "average" of metrics, rather than class performance at peak levels). I hugely appreciate that you even looked into it though, considering some of the "long lost forgotten AC specs" in SWTOR that arguably have had it worse for years.

I did want to mention, that you only need to look at the solo ranked leaderboards to see the disparity between the leading classes and the lower classes. Note: these are rough averages of the top 5 players ratings for solo on each of the ACs. I didn't actually find the average, I'm a bit too lazy for that, but these are pretty accurate for an "eyeballed" average.

Assassin / Shadow - 2650
Vangaurd / Powertech - 2600+
Sage / Sorceror - 2400
Commando / Mercenary - 2050+
Guadian / Juggernaut - 2000
Sentinel / Marauder - 1675


Those are the ratings achievable by the top players of each class. No one can look at that and not see the huge disparity between the different ACs. Group ranked is more balanced, it's true, but the number of people that play group ranked is so few and far between, and so reliant on specific group comps and strats, and as well, most people will simply not queue for group ranked due to getting destroyed by the top teams so much. The population is too small to support group ranked at this point.

I disagree with nearly everything that BioWare has done in the development of 3.0 and onward. PvP balance and design, class changes, PvE encounters that overly favor ranged classes and harshly punish melee, etc. That doesn't mean that those choices were wrong, because hey, what do I know, I'm just an IT guy that is also a very hardcore gamer, and SWTOR happens to be the game that I am most passionate about. But I cannot continue to support a company with whom I so strongly disagree in terms of their design and balance philosophy. At the end of the day, the only tool that I have to show my discontent with these decisions is the unsubscribe button. I'm going to uninstall so that I'm not tempted to come back any time soon. I still feel such a great attachment to my Marauder. I want to play him so badly. I want him to be good and competitive, like he used to be. If I leave the game installed, I will get that itch eventually, and I'll come back and think "maybe it will be better this time, I'll do OK in arenas", only to have my heart ripped out again when I lose another 10 games in a row, and my team tells me that I shouldn't be queuing for Ranked on a Marauder.

It's with a heavy heart that I leave my favorite game of the past 3 years for good.

May the force be with you all.
Excellently written post. I salute you sir.
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eartharioch's Avatar


eartharioch
04.08.2015 , 10:37 AM | #226
Quote: Originally Posted by Costello View Post
If you can only attack a target 75% of the time cause for 25% you can't get close enough dps has to be 125% of the target when attacking the dummy.
133%, actually -- if you only get 3/4 uptime, you need to to 4/3 the damage.
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Ruskaeth's Avatar


Ruskaeth
04.08.2015 , 11:53 AM | #227
Quote: Originally Posted by Vincentius View Post
Unfortunately, after all of these attacks and rage, I find it unlikely, that the developers, and the community management will come back to this thread, and post something like: "Sorry guys, we miscalculated, we'll take a better look."
I do understand that people are frustrated. They have given feedback about Marauders ever since 3.0 landed, with every PTS cycle. A lot of feedback. Then, come this cycle there has been great contributions about the class. I also want to remind you the previous classes "balanced" with 3.1.2 PTS cycle there was only a stone wall of communication.

In response to the following and ongoing outcry, they posted this to kick-start this PTS cycle--->

Quote: Originally Posted by JohnJarynowski View Post
For forthcoming class balance threads, we are going to redirect our focus on community feedback by being transparent with our update initiatives and outlining the definitions that outline these updates.
Marauder and sentinel community has beyond reasonable doubt pointed out flaws in how metrics are read and I have only seen amazing consensus in the community. It is something, regardless of the tone, developers should take into account and communicate about. Furthermore, sometimes critique comes in unflattering form but true professionals are capable of telling insult and message apart. I believe they too are but I am not at all sure they read these forums and if they do read actively, one thing could be that the community thinks their pace of communicating about the issues is too slow.
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Costello's Avatar


Costello
04.08.2015 , 12:54 PM | #228
Quote: Originally Posted by Ruskaeth View Post
I
Marauder and sentinel community has beyond reasonable doubt pointed out flaws in how metrics are read and I have only seen amazing consensus in the community. It is something, regardless of the tone, developers should take into account and communicate about. Furthermore, sometimes critique comes in unflattering form but true professionals are capable of telling insult and message apart. I believe they too are but I am not at all sure they read these forums and if they do read actively, one thing could be that the community thinks their pace of communicating about the issues is too slow.
Agreed.

Where this is nice is that bioware have really shown their stance on community feedback and communication. Once this all blows up the combat team is reassigned etc etc the community team is regigged and we get another of the we are going to do better with communication threads we can look back to this thread and know its all lip service.

Sure they like the cantina tours its a chance to go sight seeing paid for by the players and cartel packs. But when it comes to addressing class balance they are strangely silent, might be cause it doesn't involve a free trip out of state to see the sights.

Kyuuu's Avatar


Kyuuu
04.08.2015 , 12:59 PM | #229
Silence from them apparently we are all wrong and the combat team that has great track recording fix balance are right think we the ones that need to l2p...


I stand by my original comment which the same comment many other have made, do they actual play this game

I refuse to go in pvp with marauder cause shear about cc/stuns/mezz going on in pvp and the complete lack imunue we have to any of that compared to others.

and new raids being not so melee friendly means most raid groups dont want more then 1 melee and marauder is not there first choose or there 2nd..

BTW your "metric" wrong like many of said.

EricMusco's Avatar


EricMusco
04.08.2015 , 01:21 PM | #230 This is the last staff post in this thread.  
Hey folks,

I wanted to share our thoughts regarding some of the questions and feedback that we have seen in the thread.

Playstyle of Annihilation / Watchman
As many of you know, there were changes made to the playstyle of Annihilation and Watchman in 3.0. This definitely seems to be a contentious change for some Marauder/Sentinel players. The last thing we want to do is to put a Discipline’s playstyle in a place that makes its players unhappy. We will keep an eye on this and look into possible playstyle changes in the future. We don’t want you to think that this is feedback that we are ignoring; it is just not something we will change in the short term.

PvP Data
Our intent behind exposing win rates for Carnage/Combat and Annihilation/Watchman was not to suggest that they are our only data point for decision making. The goal was to express that, by looking at average win rates and overall performance, those Disciplines can be viable. Understanding, however, that in some of those cases it reflects only the best players in that class. Still, it does show that they can play at the top levels.

Now, you all brought up a really interesting fact, which is how frequently you see Marauders/Sentinels in the top of all overall ratings. It is true, in looking at that data point, that Marauders/Sentinels are definitely under-represented, we agree! However, we think the most important part of that data is not who is missing from the top, but who makes up the top. Looking at the top spread of players, almost all of them are spread across only three Advanced Classes: Powertech/Vanguard, Sorcerer/Sage, and Assassin/Shadow. That is the real problem that we are working on addressing right now. With those three Advanced Classes over-performing, all other Advanced Classes (including Marauders/Sentinels) are being pushed into a bad place. This is why you will see that we are actively working on toning down those classes specifically (like we did yesterday in 3.1.2).

We do want to avoid just buffing other classes up, and instead need to focus on bringing down the over-performing classes. If we concentrated on buffing all other classes to the status of over-performing classes, we would create a power bloat that would make PvE decisively too easy and PvP time-to-kill too short.

To reiterate what we said in the last post: We do acknowledge that there are issues with Marauders/Sentinels, especially around Utility and mobility, and we will be working to address these issues in future patches.

I do hope that this gives a little bit of perspective into our thoughts around Marauder/Sentinel balance and how it relates to other classes.

Thanks!

-eric
Eric Musco | Community Manager
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