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New SWTOR Arena Ratings and Token Rewards Suggestion Thread.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
New SWTOR Arena Ratings and Token Rewards Suggestion Thread.
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DethlaHadyn's Avatar


DethlaHadyn
03.25.2015 , 09:49 AM | #61
Quote: Originally Posted by Transcendent View Post

Others have said it, this system would simply reward those players who have more time to spare and can simply spam games. Not really an indication of ability.

I think the real issue lays with resolving class balance (.... ....) and the lack of a large enough player pool due to no cross faction / cross server etc. Those are the main points that need to be fixed first and foremost.

If they don't want to fix class balance, then bring back 8v8. Just saying.

Hey man, I gotta apologize, for the original system has since been completely updated. Please check the first page for the new updated version which indeed addresses multiple concerns, or look at this link.

Spoiler


Now I did the math on multiple levels with the old system that only included a small fixed rating loss, and even with the "Consecutives" in place, there was still favoritism granted towards players who played a heavy amount of games as opposed to good players that only played a few, and thus had superior win/loss ratios. The original premise behind the old suggested system was to deliberately promote participation. But again, some players suggested that they didn't want to see the win/loss ratios become blurry by "over-acheivers", which is fair. Having said that, it's unlikely every player ques up for 500 matches in a season, but having the mathematical ability to win by doing so, couldn't be accepted.

That's why I revamped the old suggested system to not placate the loss of rating, but now instead I found the only way to succeed was to entirely embrace it, but on a sensible level.

DethlaHadyn's Avatar


DethlaHadyn
03.26.2015 , 12:00 AM | #62
Alright, let's put some numbers into action with the updated system.

Spoiler


Players can earn:
  • 10 Generic Rating for each win.(1 token)
  • 10 bonus GR for the 3 Win Daily Mission.(3 tokens)
  • 30 bonus GR for the 3 Consecutive Wins Perpetual.(6 tokens)

Players Lose rating as per their respective tier:
  • Grunt Tier: -0 Generic Rating per loss
  • Bronze Tier: -10 GR per loss
  • Silver Tier: -15 GR per loss
  • Gold Tier: -20 GR per loss


So let's experiment with the possible outcomes:

Player 1
Plays 10 matches first day, loses them all. Player one earns only a few credits and coms, but rating remains at zero.

Player 2
Plays 10 matches first day, wins 1 loses 1, etc. He ends up with 50GR from 5 wins, and he also completed the "3 Win Daily, which grants tokens and in this case an extra 100%GR which is 10 bonus rating. His total for the day is 60GR (8 tokens earned).

Player 3
Plays 10 matches first day, wins them all. He ends up with 100GR from ten wins, completed the "3 win daily(bonus 10GR), and completed 3 "Three Consecutive Wins" missions(90GR). His total rating earned is 200GR (31 tokens earned).

Keep in mind that Player 3 exceeded the 100GR threshold and entered the Bronze Tier after his sixth match. This is due to wining his first six matches in a row. He technically could have lost rating on his seventh match and suffered a -10 rating, which would have been subtracted from his original 130GR pool.

Anyakaschala's Avatar


Anyakaschala
03.26.2015 , 12:31 AM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by DethlaHadyn View Post
One question would be "Why are our Ranked populations so low??

Maybe Applied ELO Theory sucks with:
  • -Trolls
  • -Poorly geared teammates
  • -Imbalanced teams


Reasons People give up on YoloQue:
  • -Trolls(Did I mention Trolls?)
  • -Improperly geared teammates(no exp requirements)
  • -Guilds don't want to lose rating trying out different comps and suffering harsh negative rating penalties for it.


This new system would cater to every issue presented above and resolve each and every one of them.
Well, let's also face another simple reason. A lot of people don't queue because they aren't fotm classes, and as thus pointless to actually queue.

AlrikFassbauer's Avatar


AlrikFassbauer
03.26.2015 , 10:59 AM | #64
Quote: Originally Posted by Anyakaschala View Post
Well, let's also face another simple reason. A lot of people don't queue because they aren't fotm classes, and as thus pointless to actually queue.
Good point. I just don't dare to play Ranked with my Gunslinger at all - that few people who actually went up in the Ranked statistics aside.
Complex minds
Cope with
Complex problems.

DomiSotto's Avatar


DomiSotto
03.26.2015 , 05:38 PM | #65
It's nice you are puttying all the efforts into it, but I would argue that the system you suggest won't make a difference. Here is what I think.

There is one main reason as to why the ranked participation is dropping.

Simply put, it’s because we are humans. As such, any skill is distributed unevenly, with a very low percentage displaying an exceptional ability.

On the Harbinger, there are 45 toons with 75+ wins. Less than 5%. A single highly skillful player, is statistically significant if you add up all the alts in this high winning category.

There are 506 toons with 0 wins out of 1607 toons that were queued (31%) and 1246 toons with under 10 wins.
77.5% of toons entered in a ranked queue on the Harbinger could not win 10 matches. That leaves about 350 toons in between.

What I think will inevitably happen in the system you devised is that you essentially take the best of the best (all 10 or 20 of them per server!) out of the game. They won’t get to play unless they queue sync day in day out and by day 3 they’d go and create new alts. Which will promptly rise through the queue, because, remember, they are the best of the best, and… then what?

As for the rest of us? The ones you call the grunts, but did not think we were at 80%?

Anyone with any degree of realism knows that winning even one match is against odds – see the 80% under 10 wins.

We’ll simply sit in the ground zero pool or the Bronze Tier (in your terminology). I doubt it will encourage people to play any more than seeing their ELO go lower and lower would.

I project that your Silver and Gold Tiers will be mostly empty, because most of the people who now sit in the mid-rating range, had accumulated it based on the short lucky strike of match-ups. A continuous grind will erode that.
Arenas give so few comms for a loss if that’s the same as in regs, that you will get far more in regs even at 30% cost, without the stigma of being a bad, the cursing, and the waiting time.

With the current system folks enter because it’s a gamble. Those who don’t take risks, don’t drink Champaign and all that. And every 2 months or so, they can try to hit the winning strike or fudge it again.

Eliminate that gamble, and based on the current numbers, I predict that up to 80% of the population will never touch the Silver.

Chain-winning regs may happen to well, the rest of us. Winning ranked arenas just… doesn’t.
Deal.

Anyakaschala's Avatar


Anyakaschala
03.26.2015 , 05:47 PM | #66
Quote: Originally Posted by DomiSotto View Post
It's nice you are puttying all the efforts into it, but I would argue that the system you suggest won't make a difference. Here is what I think.

There is one main reason as to why the ranked participation is dropping.

Simply put, it’s because we are humans. As such, any skill is distributed unevenly, with a very low percentage displaying an exceptional ability.

On the Harbinger, there are 45 toons with 75+ wins. Less than 5%. A single highly skillful player, is statistically significant if you add up all the alts in this high winning category.

There are 506 toons with 0 wins out of 1607 toons that were queued (31%) and 1246 toons with under 10 wins.
77.5% of toons entered in a ranked queue on the Harbinger could not win 10 matches. That leaves about 350 toons in between.

What I think will inevitably happen in the system you devised is that you essentially take the best of the best (all 10 or 20 of them per server!) out of the game. They won’t get to play unless they queue sync day in day out and by day 3 they’d go and create new alts. Which will promptly rise through the queue, because, remember, they are the best of the best, and… then what?

As for the rest of us? The ones you call the grunts, but did not think we were at 80%?

Anyone with any degree of realism knows that winning even one match is against odds – see the 80% under 10 wins.

We’ll simply sit in the ground zero pool or the Bronze Tier (in your terminology). I doubt it will encourage people to play any more than seeing their ELO go lower and lower would.

I project that your Silver and Gold Tiers will be mostly empty, because most of the people who now sit in the mid-rating range, had accumulated it based on the short lucky strike of match-ups. A continuous grind will erode that.
Arenas give so few comms for a loss if that’s the same as in regs, that you will get far more in regs even at 30% cost, without the stigma of being a bad, the cursing, and the waiting time.

With the current system folks enter because it’s a gamble. Those who don’t take risks, don’t drink Champaign and all that. And every 2 months or so, they can try to hit the winning strike or fudge it again.

Eliminate that gamble, and based on the current numbers, I predict that up to 80% of the population will never touch the Silver.

Chain-winning regs may happen to well, the rest of us. Winning ranked arenas just… doesn’t.
great point, esp considering Harbinger, if not mistaken, is the most populated server in the game. Add that the most realistic is that at least half of those that are at the 45 wins are probably queue syncing, and probably with multiple toons. Thus that could easily be just 2 to 3 teams skewing the numbers.

DethlaHadyn's Avatar


DethlaHadyn
03.26.2015 , 06:54 PM | #67
Quote: Originally Posted by DomiSotto View Post
It's nice you are puttying all the efforts into it, but I would argue that the system you suggest won't make a difference. Here is what I think.

There is one main reason as to why the ranked participation is dropping.

Simply put, it’s because we are humans. As such, any skill is distributed unevenly, with a very low percentage displaying an exceptional ability.

On the Harbinger, there are 45 toons with 75+ wins. Less than 5%. A single highly skillful player, is statistically significant if you add up all the alts in this high winning category.

There are 506 toons with 0 wins out of 1607 toons that were queued (31%) and 1246 toons with under 10 wins.
77.5% of toons entered in a ranked queue on the Harbinger could not win 10 matches. That leaves about 350 toons in between.

What I think will inevitably happen in the system you devised is that you essentially take the best of the best (all 10 or 20 of them per server!) out of the game. They won’t get to play unless they queue sync day in day out and by day 3 they’d go and create new alts. Which will promptly rise through the queue, because, remember, they are the best of the best, and… then what?

As for the rest of us? The ones you call the grunts, but did not think we were at 80%?

Anyone with any degree of realism knows that winning even one match is against odds – see the 80% under 10 wins.

We’ll simply sit in the ground zero pool or the Bronze Tier (in your terminology). I doubt it will encourage people to play any more than seeing their ELO go lower and lower would.

I project that your Silver and Gold Tiers will be mostly empty, because most of the people who now sit in the mid-rating range, had accumulated it based on the short lucky strike of match-ups. A continuous grind will erode that.
Arenas give so few comms for a loss if that’s the same as in regs, that you will get far more in regs even at 30% cost, without the stigma of being a bad, the cursing, and the waiting time.

With the current system folks enter because it’s a gamble. Those who don’t take risks, don’t drink Champaign and all that. And every 2 months or so, they can try to hit the winning strike or fudge it again.

Eliminate that gamble, and based on the current numbers, I predict that up to 80% of the population will never touch the Silver.

Chain-winning regs may happen to well, the rest of us. Winning ranked arenas just… doesn’t.

Thank you very much for the reply.



First of all, not everyone is "expected" to reach gold tier. Only the dedicated players will achieve it.

Question. Why would people even want to achieve high rating with our current ELO system?.... Is it to acquire the reward gear? or is it simply a quest to become the best?

That is why with the new proposed token rewards system, players will keep queing up to buy the gear they want. That in itself will quadruple the ranked playerbase, IF the new vendor Bioware provides has appealing items/mounts/gear. Players who compete and successfully achieve wins, will be elevated into tiers against other players who have the same performance ratios. Remember that with this system, players are heavily rewarded for wins, but only suffer losses pertaining to their respective tier.



Now, let's examine the Grunt Tier.

You will get ALOT of people trying different classes, different specs/gear stats, etc, knowing that the system won't punish them for a loss. They will have to earn ten wins, which won't be difficult because there will be a substantially higher amount of players in que, and there will be a far larger variety of classes to compete with. Throw in the possibilities for the "Three Win Consecutives", you'll see how players are completely encouraged to que, and to win. Those who seriously want to try to rise the ranks to attain a higher level of competition will do so, aaand if they go on a bad losing streak, they will simply restart their career from the bottom....not deeper in the hole.

Another perk from creating a grunt tier, is that those pesky buggers called TROLLS, who que up in green gear, or simply stand in spot till dead, will not be able to advance to the next tier without winning 10 matches. So in effect, you'll have each and every player who starts their career, trying eagerly to escape the gutter and enter a higher caliber, and more enjoyable level of pvp gameplay. IF a troll ends up getting carried into the Bronze Tier, they would immediately get thrown back into the gutter due to their unwillingness/inability to win games.

Thanks. /discuss.

DomiSotto's Avatar


DomiSotto
03.26.2015 , 07:19 PM | #68
BioWARE offered free crystals for people to queue GR. It gave less than a week long boost to participation. If a particular reward catches someone's interest they might keep trying, but there is simply nothing that can be universally so appealing that a continuous string of losses that a wast majority would encounter won't eventually discourage the participation. It is no different than the current system in this regard. There is nothing wrong with the rewards; they are fine, attractive, rare... and yes, they make some players to try to play or to game the system.

Your proposal is just as discouraging as the current system for the new players, and in addition it bars the high end folks from participating.

Do you think that a lot of people can make it past 10 wins? And if they do, how many do you think won't get discouraged by encountering the rating losses after all that grind and struggle and being thrown right back in the grunt tier to again try to regrind those 10 games? Three consecutive wins is basically against the odds, and nobody but the good players that band together will get it.

It's not that your suggestions are not well-meant, it is that the competitive format of any kind by definition stops being attractive as soon as people realize how very few can succeed. It works f the population grows overall due to fun and friendliness, as there are always talented debutantes, but if the population doesn't grow overall, and there is a more rewarding activity available, the regs, the ranked is going to continue to dwindle.

Folks will play that which is fun and friendly. From what i know, the ranked is not either and the participants themselves actively try to discourage others.
Deal.

DethlaHadyn's Avatar


DethlaHadyn
03.26.2015 , 07:32 PM | #69
Quote: Originally Posted by DomiSotto View Post
Your proposal is just as discouraging as the current system for the new players, and in addition it bars the high end folks from participating.
Completely untrue.


I think it's important for you to differentiate the difference between the Token awards and the End of Season Rating rewards. Once again, players are rewarded a token for a win, and bonus tokens for completing the daily(and Consecutives). They would use those tokens to buy items/mounts/gear that they want.

The Tiered Rating rewards(awarded end of season), would be different and unique to each tier.

DomiSotto's Avatar


DomiSotto
03.26.2015 , 07:36 PM | #70
But most people cannot complete a Daily. They will not win the tokens. That what the numbers say. Nothing you suggest will change that. Average players just don't win in ranked enough times.

EDIT: Let's just agree to disagree. I know you are having fun devising this, so I am not going to argue.
Deal.
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