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Island_Jedi's field manual to operations


-OBITUS's Avatar


-OBITUS
03.11.2015 , 06:45 PM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Island_Jedi View Post
The center of the enemies frames is the measure for distance not the edge. its simple on bigger bosses you can be closer on smaller ones you have to be farther. PVP frames dont change so do not mention it. 2.6 is for larger bosses, smaller one you need to be further.
Hmm. I'm totally guessing so don't take this to seriously but how is distance measured? If we're lucky and BW like physics, it'll be a dot mass or center of mass from which every other point is measured. So if we make it easier (two dimensional), let's say a boss is represented by a circle graphic and a player is measured by a triangle graphic. Is the distance measured between the center of the circle and the center of the triangle? Or is is the very edge of both (if this were so, which edge? The closest between the two?)? And if that were true, how does the game account for camera pan--because the angle of the camera would decide which edge is closest to the boss.
Also, why do PvP frames not change? with players of typically the same dimensions (relatively), it would be an easier calculation for the game engine to handle. Throw a screenshot if you can later of the 2.6 metres.
Thanks

Jerba's Avatar


Jerba
03.11.2015 , 06:58 PM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by -OBITUS View Post
Hmm. I'm totally guessing so don't take this to seriously but how is distance measured? If we're lucky and BW like physics, it'll be a dot mass or center of mass from which every other point is measured. So if we make it easier (two dimensional), let's say a boss is represented by a circle graphic and a player is measured by a triangle graphic. Is the distance measured between the center of the circle and the center of the triangle? Or is is the very edge of both (if this were so, which edge? The closest between the two?)? And if that were true, how does the game account for camera pan--because the angle of the camera would decide which edge is closest to the boss.
Also, why do PvP frames not change? with players of typically the same dimensions (relatively), it would be an easier calculation for the game engine to handle. Throw a screenshot if you can later of the 2.6 metres.
Thanks
We really dig very deep into core game mechanics here, stuff you won't know about unless you play the game since beta or really pay attention to this. Anyway, here's what I know:
There are two types of distance measurements during combat in this game: Ability activation and target selection.
  1. Example for ability activation: An enemy needs to be in range of 30.0 meters so that you can use this ability.
  2. Example for target selection: When the boss does this type of AoE attack, any player within 10.0 meters of him will receive damage.
These two measurements are implemented differently in the engine. 1 is measured to the edge of the boss, 2 is measured from the center of the boss. Specifically, by the edge of the boss I mean the edge of the red circle on the ground, not the size of the 3D model.
The distance you see in the target frame of the UI always shows the 1 measurement from the edge of the target.
Therefore, it is possible that a cleave is implemented with a 10 meter range but you don't take damage when you are standing at 9.0 meters.

Anyway, I think that's the gist of your question. It gets a lot more complicated when we consider 3D measurements. E.g. when you are standing on a crate and not on the same level as the boss.
Basically, there are three types of voids, cones, cylinders and spheres, and more complicated voids like the Underlurker cross are just a combination of four cylinders, with the blue void you see being the intersection of the telegraph with the ground. I've been wanting to write a guide on this for my raid group for some time because they just can't get it into their heads how this works, and I'll definitely share it on the forums as well when I do.

-OBITUS's Avatar


-OBITUS
03.11.2015 , 07:05 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by Jerba View Post
We really dig very deep into game mechanics here, stuff you won't know about unless you play the game since beta or really pay attention to this. Anyway, here's what I know:
There are two types of distance measurements during combat in this game: Ability activation and target selection.
  1. Example for ability activation: An enemy needs to be in range of 30.0 meters so that you can use this ability.
  2. Example for target selection: When the boss does this type of AoE attack, any player within 10.0 meters of him will receive damage.
These two measurements are implemented differently in the engine. 1 is measured to the edge of the boss, 2 is measured from the center of the boss. Specifically, by the edge of the boss I mean the edge of the red circle on the ground, not the size of the 3D model.
The distance you see in the target frame of the UI always shows the 1 measurement from the edge of the target.
Therefore, it is possible that a cleave is implemented with a 10 meter range but you don't take damage when you are standing at 9.0 meters.

Anyway, I think that's the gist of your question. It gets a lot more complicated when we consider 3D measurements. E.g. when you are standing on a crate and not on the same level as the boss.
Basically, there are three types of voids, cones, cylinders and spheres, and more complicated voids like the Underlurker cross are just a combination of four cylinders. I've been wanting to write a guide on this for my raid group for some time because they just can't get it into their heads how this works, and I'll definitely share it on the forums as well when I do.
Looking forward to the guide.
I think I understand the x and y axis of the distances (all relative to movement). The only problem, as you said, is when we change the base height of our actual character. We can than either make the floor (our previous 0) negative, or scale up and call the crate 2 or however high up it is. The problem then is how the engine measures. If it measures from the client, you're ****ed if it measures up without negatives; because in certain spots of the game, if you load from a hill at, let's say 5 metres, and your next load screen WITHOUT moving is a guild ship, you move from position 5, load on a position 0, and transition to ... 5, or 0, or both. Still playing around with it.

Jerba's Avatar


Jerba
03.11.2015 , 07:10 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by -OBITUS View Post
Looking forward to the guide.
I think I understand the x and y axis of the distances (all relative to movement). The only problem, as you said, is when we change the base height of our actual character. We can than either make the floor (our previous 0) negative, or scale up and call the crate 2 or however high up it is. The problem then is how the engine measures. If it measures from the client, you're ****ed if it measures up without negatives; because in certain spots of the game, if you load from a hill at, let's say 5 metres, and your next load screen WITHOUT moving is a guild ship, you move from position 5, load on a position 0, and transition to ... 5, or 0, or both. Still playing around with it.
Don't worry about height, in-game, the actual position of your character is at your feet, in the center of the red or blue targeting circle, so your "z-position" will be the same no matter which body type you have. Therefore, bosses will also have the same z-position, no matter if they are 2 meters tall or 30 meters. All telegraphs are centered at the ground and directed in a straight line toward the player.

(I put z-position in quotation marks because if we really want to get technical, 3D engines use X and Z for left/right/forward/back movement and the Y axis for up and down, but I guess we can ignore it for this discussion)

-OBITUS's Avatar


-OBITUS
03.11.2015 , 07:17 PM | #35
3D... xD
Yeah--the last bit's got me thinking. I'll come up with something tomorrow. Jotting down some stuff so I can test it in game. If x and z are left/right + forward/backward, these calculations are going to be oh so joyous when we move diagonal and gain elevation.

Anywho, if our characters have no height assignment, (and our position is measured off the red circle), do we measure our elevation by map altitude? After your response, I'll probably make a new thread so we can keep the guide relevant.

Jerba's Avatar


Jerba
03.11.2015 , 07:29 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by -OBITUS View Post
Anywho, if our characters have no height assignment, (and our position is measured off the red circle), do we measure our elevation by map altitude? After your response, I'll probably make a new thread so we can keep the guide relevant.
Just put your mouse on the minimap, the tooltip will show you your character's position. On there, it is automatically translated into the user-friendly mode of X, Y and Z that most players are used to, so I recommend you also just stay with Z being the height. It is just a matter of definition, as long as you stay consistent, there's nothing wrong with using the Z axis for height.