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Amateur pvp cheats, hackers and lag switchers have ruined pvp

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Amateur pvp cheats, hackers and lag switchers have ruined pvp

WannEras's Avatar


WannEras
02.03.2015 , 12:40 PM | #211
Okay so answer these questions:

- When a lag switch user presses the button, moves about while lagged out, what happens when they let go of the button? Do they get teleported back to where they lagged out or does the server move them to the final position they ended up at on the client? I have personally never been rolled back when I've experienced a genuine lag spike (but I did hit an invisible wall about 30m away which I was free to roam around inside).

- If one player is focusing a lag switch user hard, then they press the button, what happens on the player's screen who was attacking said lag switcher? Do they keep piling damage on them unhindered while the lag switches is defenceless and once they come back in they are dead?

You say what I've been seeing is genuine lag, so if genuine lag affects the game in this way, how come articial lag doesn't?

Check dis.

And dis.

So how different is the way WoW servers and clients communicate compared to SWTOR?

You say I lagged out every time I saw this happen in huttball, how convenient.

Zoom_VI's Avatar


Zoom_VI
02.03.2015 , 01:16 PM | #212
You notice the lag when they are scoring because that stands out in your brain. Human brains only see what they want to see. You never notice the guy lagging out on the offnode, and you never notice the when people you aren't actively attacking are lagging out.

Confirmation bias.
Crinn

Carry me, I'm Plasmatech.

WannEras's Avatar


WannEras
02.03.2015 , 01:36 PM | #213
Yeah, I notice it when it's highly convenient.

You are denying it completely without:

a) answering either of the scenarios I put forward

b) challenging the evidence I've shown that it does have an effect in a similar MMO

Confirmation bias what? All you've done is deny it without explaining why, only the what... I'm still waiting for a reason why it's not possible in SWTOR, all you guys have done is thrown copied and pasted jargon as your reasoning.

WannEras's Avatar


WannEras
02.03.2015 , 02:03 PM | #214
Look let me me ask this question:

"Do lag switches have any effect in SWTOR?"

Now please answer this question as though I'm anonymous and explain why (for dummies). Just explain exactly what will happen between the server and client when someone cuts their outbound data for a few seconds and continues to move around until their connection is stable again.

Zoom_VI's Avatar


Zoom_VI
02.03.2015 , 02:34 PM | #215
Quote: Originally Posted by WannEras View Post
Look let me me ask this question:

"Do lag switches have any effect in SWTOR?"

Now please answer this question as though I'm anonymous and explain why (for dummies). Just explain exactly what will happen between the server and client when someone cuts their outbound data for a few seconds and continues to move around until their connection is stable again.

TCP which swtor runs on has certain rules. Namely all packets must be in order and all packets must arrive uncorrupted. If you interrupt your outbound packets, then server will demand the client resend the missing packets and since all packets must be in order it will ignore your later packets until it gets the missing ones.

Or basically if you lag out, the server won't do anything until it finds out what you where doing while lagging.

There are also some other things such the fact that the client has some safeguards built into it, anyone who has experience heavy lag should be familiar with the invisible walls that occur, as the client simply won't let you wander more than a few meters without data from the server.
Crinn

Carry me, I'm Plasmatech.

WannEras's Avatar


WannEras
02.03.2015 , 02:54 PM | #216
Okay, and on lagging out and moving about within the safeguards of the client, on reestablishing connection you will be brought back in at the new location or will be rubber banded back to where you lagged out?

AKA you are able to "teleport" due to lag or not?

It's quite weird that since about 2 hours ago I am now getting 700ms constantly in-game, but when I ping any other server with CMD I get 19-25. I ask others and they're not getting any lag.

Zoom_VI's Avatar


Zoom_VI
02.03.2015 , 03:43 PM | #217
Quote: Originally Posted by WannEras View Post
Okay, and on lagging out and moving about within the safeguards of the client, on reestablishing connection you will be brought back in at the new location or will be rubber banded back to where you lagged out?

AKA you are able to "teleport" due to lag or not?
Well the thruth is, it can be either depending on factors that to my knowledge nobody who isn't a bioware employee knows. I can anecdotally attest to being rubberbanded back and I can also anecdotally attest to teleporting forward. From what I can gather the server makes the choice biased on some unknown ruleset as to which one to pursue.

But remember the server holds all the cards as far as combat is concerned. If your output is interrupted, then in the interim time between establishing reconnection you are for as far as the server is concerned sitting helpless. Even if the server decides to teleport forward, that does you little good if you died in the meantime.

If you really want to go in depth I would recommend PM'ing Malastare as he has dug far more into how swtor runs server side than I have or care to do.

Quote:
It's quite weird that since about 2 hours ago I am now getting 700ms constantly in-game, but when I ping any other server with CMD I get 19-25. I ask others and they're not getting any lag.
If nobody else is experiencing it then its probably either on you, or its a interruption somewhere between you and the server.
You are not directly connected to the servers, you signal is bounced all through the internets before it reaches its destination, a interruption anywhere along the line could cause problems.
Crinn

Carry me, I'm Plasmatech.

Icykill_'s Avatar


Icykill_
02.03.2015 , 05:38 PM | #218
Quote: Originally Posted by WannEras View Post
Okay so answer these questions:

- When a lag switch user presses the button, moves about while lagged out, what happens when they let go of the button? Do they get teleported back to where they lagged out or does the server move them to the final position they ended up at on the client? I have personally never been rolled back when I've experienced a genuine lag spike (but I did hit an invisible wall about 30m away which I was free to roam around inside).

- If one player is focusing a lag switch user hard, then they press the button, what happens on the player's screen who was attacking said lag switcher? Do they keep piling damage on them unhindered while the lag switches is defenceless and once they come back in they are dead?

You say what I've been seeing is genuine lag, so if genuine lag affects the game in this way, how come articial lag doesn't?

Check dis.

And dis.

So how different is the way WoW servers and clients communicate compared to SWTOR?

You say I lagged out every time I saw this happen in huttball, how convenient.
Lag switching basically works like this...
The connection to your network is interrupted
The interrupt is the out going packets, not the in going... So your client still receives any in coming data... But your out going seems to lag
This allows the cheater to make moves uninterrupted... Ie escaping, repositioning, hitting their target, scoring, capping
Now if done right the server then updates what they did in relation to the other player... There is a high percentage that it decides in favour of the lagger... But as Zoom said it can go the other way...as far as the server knows the client lagged
Of course it does take a bit of skill to do it right so that it comes out in the cheaters favour... There is also the problem that there is also unacceptable natural lag sometimes... So it can be difficult to know if it is real lag or switching... This is why Bio have such difficulty in policing it (I believe wow introduced some artificial lag in their cross servers to make it easier to detect people using switches)
When the same players/guilds use a switch constantly, match after match and you play them on a daily basis or regulary... It starts to stand out... Especially when it seems to only happen at the most opportune time
What does the non cheater see?... Teleporting, repositioning too fast, speed run effect, unkillable, massive damage spikes to them, cappers uninterruptible, scoring... Etc... Sometimes this may seem like you are lagging... But you are not... It is the cheater... Why does it seem like it's you?... Because the screen jerks a bit with the server trying to compensate
Anyway I am hoping this settles the question... I won't keep debating this...

Ps... I know someone who made a switch to "test" what happens... He used it in Outlaws den and not in WZs to see what the effect was... It worked as described... He then stopped using it... FYI... He was a denier too... He didn't believe it was possible...

Cheating is the lowest form of game play and even worse in pvp... If you can't win ledgitmately against non AI opponents you should find a solo AI game to play... players who cheat shouldn't even get a warning... They should just be permanently banhammered

Icykill_'s Avatar


Icykill_
02.03.2015 , 05:47 PM | #219
Quote: Originally Posted by Zoom_VI View Post
Well the thruth is, it can be either depending on factors that to my knowledge nobody who isn't a bioware employee knows. I can anecdotally attest to being rubberbanded back and I can also anecdotally attest to teleporting forward. From what I can gather the server makes the choice biased on some unknown ruleset as to which one to pursue.

But remember the server holds all the cards as far as combat is concerned. If your output is interrupted, then in the interim time between establishing reconnection you are for as far as the server is concerned sitting helpless. Even if the server decides to teleport forward, that does you little good if you died in the meantime.

If you really want to go in depth I would recommend PM'ing Malastare as he has dug far more into how swtor runs server side than I have or care to do.


If nobody else is experiencing it then its probably either on you, or its a interruption somewhere between you and the server.
You are not directly connected to the servers, you signal is bounced all through the internets before it reaches its destination, a interruption anywhere along the line could cause problems.
This is also true... I have been in matches where the server spikes to 10k lag... I don't realise it's spiked so keep running with the Hutt ball and score... then realise that everyone isn't moving... I expect to DC.,. But don't... Then the server spike goes and I have scored... I was accused of hacking because I rubberbanded to the line
This was happening about 6 weeks before the expansion and went on for a week... 90% of the time I DCd... I even stopped playing for a bit because of it... Lots of people were effected... While others weren't... I was able to trace route it back to a router in LA that was having packet loss and lag spikes... So you can see that the server can be fickle when deciding what is lag and packet loss...

Icykill_'s Avatar


Icykill_
02.03.2015 , 06:47 PM | #220
Speed hacker recorded on a twich stream... 5 hours ago...

Here's the thread that has the link

http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...08#post8011808

FYI... Go to the end of the Twitch stream... 2 hours 39 mins to see it.. Long time to watch otherwise.. LoL