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A different look at PvP Balancing


MasterApollo

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Remove Bolster

 

This was the main aim of the original discussion from a few weeks back, we all know it doesn't work, every patch brings new and exciting ways to exploit what is fundamentally a broken system

 

Replace with a set of baseline stats

Rather than having to cope with the endless variations of gear types and having bolster suspectly replacing them with a buff to primary stat, endurance and then expertise, essentially the idea would be to ignore gear completely (until endgame pvp, I'll get to that) and give everyone lvl 10-60 a base set of stats for that class, pre-determined by BW. So a sage at lvl 10 will have the same as one at 59 once they walk into PvP. The only difference will be class skills unlocked and player skill/knowledge

 

Allows for easier balance

The only things BW would be working on for balance will be individual class skills and overall output from a discipline (be that dps/heal/tank). As they have 1 set of stats to adjust for a discipline (whole point of 3.0 is simplification really) the idea of just having the 1 class stat set will allow for a large amount of data to be gathered quickly on what skills do what.

 

Going forwards, the only 2 possibilities for balance are that either a single skill is over/under-powered (so tweak the skill) or the whole discipline is over/under-powered (combination of skill issues or tweak the stats).

 

You also then don't have to worry about stat power creep if you add new levels to the game, only how new skills in the disciplines have an effect, so you'd probably need to re-work low level brackets a touch but nothing major

 

More about skill, not gear

Makes PvP more about player knowledge of their disciplines rotation (something that's generally easy to pickup) then the more learn over time of knowing when best to use interrupts on someone, roots, stuns, knockbacks etc

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endgame progression

 

Generally speaking, this is where the idea became a bit unstuck when I first posted. Using expertise for endgame progression is fine, you can essentially have the pvp gear have just expertise on it and nothing else as the baseline stats are still applied. The point of contention is how much of a bonus should you get and should there be anything else in the mix?

 

  • Standard lvl 60 PvP Gear +4% for the whole set
  • Ranked lvl 60 PvP Gear +8% for the whole set and set bonuses

 

That was the idea that was put out there to generally no complaints. You could argue with having the set bonuses on the standard gear too like it is now, as well as increasing overall effectiveness of expertise. Again though, it's an easier thing to look at when there's not a million different other things in play from bolster.

 

It also gets back to the simpler idea expertise in that you only get it from gear as you take part in pvp and it gives you a bit more damage survivability while meaning a player without pvp gear can still outplay you (in theory but if you have the gear you'd like to think you'd know what you'd be doing hehehe).

 

That's essentially it. Feel free to pop thoughts on, I'll elaborate on things as needed and re-word stuff if it doesn't make sense

Edited by MasterApollo
typing up and re-wording
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imbalanced pvp is best pvp for me :) u get rekt u work on ur gear u get rekt by sorcerer u roll a sorcerer or find a way to beat him . pvp in 90 % games will never be balanced. mayby only in fifa or cs . thats what makes it challenging and fun

 

You want a challenge? How about knowing that the only difference between your opponent is how they play the class. You wonder why these MOBAs and FPS games have big money tournaments for PvP? Its because the only difference is how the players play, not some random bug or some gear that has taken months to grind up.

 

and people wonder why there isn't a serious pvp community anymore... ;)

 

Seriously though, from posting this on reddit too it seems like this system might worked best for unranked. It's meant to be more casual, less serious, no need for uber grinds and just playing for fun.

 

If ranked had progression, I'd equate it to folks needing fancier gear to be able to play HM/NiM ops in PvE. So the serious guys who are bothered about the gear can still queue for that, then those who just want to play for fun without having to wonder which bugged bolster lvl 55-59 player is going to stomp them

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You want a challenge? How about knowing that the only difference between your opponent is how they play the class. You wonder why these MOBAs and FPS games have big money tournaments for PvP? Its because the only difference is how the players play, not some random bug or some gear that has taken months to grind up.

 

and people wonder why there isn't a serious pvp community anymore... ;)

 

Seriously though, from posting this on reddit too it seems like this system might worked best for unranked. It's meant to be more casual, less serious, no need for uber grinds and just playing for fun.

 

If ranked had progression, I'd equate it to folks needing fancier gear to be able to play HM/NiM ops in PvE. So the serious guys who are bothered about the gear can still queue for that, then those who just want to play for fun without having to wonder which bugged bolster lvl 55-59 player is going to stomp them

 

but this is MMO u cant rely only on knowing what enemy can do to u his abilities and stuff like lol / dota . here u have a character that u invest time in so u can make him stronger just like it always was in mmo's

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One of the big jokes with 3.0 was that BW number crunch themselves internally (no stopwatch!) to give a set of ideals. In simple terms it means that if person has x stats it will produce y. That got me thinking that BW need to look at PvP balance differently.

 

What's the ideal? Well, if it comes down to it, the "perfect" scenario on a simple 1v1 of two people, same class, level and gear it comes down to the individual skill of the player in terms of position, when to use stuns, push-backs interrupts etc. Essentially: skill of the player of that class.

 

So, how about replace bolster with a stat normaliser? BW already has the ideal numbers (apparently) so all you'd need is an overriding passive when entering PvP which gave you your classes those ideal stats, then go at it. The main positive is balance. No longer struggling to balance with PvE and PvP as the stat normaliser would allow BW to adjust things at their end just for PvP.

 

Is it a perfect idea as a replacement? Well it's mainly just focussing on balance but for it to work you'd probably need to effectively re-work the pvp reward system and expertise wouldn't be needed. The positive? PvP no longer based on who has the latest way to boost up with bolster, becomes about using your build and focusing on the objectives.

 

Feel free to add positives/negatives, would love to discuss the idea further :)

I totally agree. It would eliminate that damn gear grind too.

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but this is MMO u cant rely only on knowing what enemy can do to u his abilities and stuff like lol / dota . here u have a character that u invest time in so u can make him stronger just like it always was in mmo's

 

Don't get me wrong, the main downside of a system like this is you'd have to come up with a different system for progression to make the character "feel" something. Yet if you're talking about PvP and investing in your character, surely having rewards based off a fair system would give more worth?

 

I'm just throwing stuff out there and it seems to be very 50/50 from a lot of folks here and on reddit but one thing is for sure, most people agree bolster is a broken system ;)

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I totally agree. It would eliminate that damn gear grind too.

 

I've heard that from a number of folks who like to queue for ranked but are casual players, so maybe I was wrong in assuming it would be fine leaving in progression for ranked play.

 

I'm not 100% on what the alternative is really. Some folks on reddit said my idea is similar to what they do on GW2 for pvp, so I'm going to have a look at their setup to see. Either way, I'm sure having some sort of rewards/progression based on a more fair and balanced system would be better for PvP.

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Ever since they claimed the black-yellow fortitude crystal most popular,

I ignore any conclusion they come to based on raw data.

 

In fairness, I've used that crystal on every character I've ever created and I'm probably not the only one ;)

 

For the sake of the number crunchers out there, there'd be nothing stopping BW if they did this from releasing the numbers they would apply to each class to let the community mull them over. Then you'd have complete transparency when something was changed for PvP balance too.

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I found this idea horribly implemented in GW2. Playing structured pvp and wvw feelt like different games because of how limited your stat choices in structured where.

 

If the system you propose would take into account the choice of mods, armoring etc I would prefer this over the current bolster. Only as a baseline bolster though, pvp gear should still give a slight advantage.

 

Additionally, the stats is a minor issue compared to the other balance problems this game has.

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I found this idea horribly implemented in GW2. Playing structured pvp and wvw feelt like different games because of how limited your stat choices in structured where.

 

If the system you propose would take into account the choice of mods, armoring etc I would prefer this over the current bolster. Only as a baseline bolster though, pvp gear should still give a slight advantage.

 

Additionally, the stats is a minor issue compared to the other balance problems this game has.

 

I'm mainly just throwing out another idea because bolster as a system has always been bad :p

 

I didn't even know this was how GW2 did things until folks commented on it so I guess some other smart designer person thought this up years ago to be re-hashed by me, internet noob :p

 

I'm not sure on where progression would be as a lot of folks are saying they'd like to have pvp gear progression still but then just as many casuals so far are saying no to that too ;)

 

I vaguely remember folks talking about pvp at launch and wasn't the original concept meant to be everyone would be equal in standard stuff, then the pvp gear would add in a certain percentage on top? Rather than bolster which seems to pull its buff from god knows where and provides stats all over the place :D

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The PvP imbalance has very little to do with bolster and gear stats and has everything to do with class balance. The problem is one class, when taking player skill out of the equation, is stronger than others.

 

In this last patch the boosted mobility of ranged classes and buffed the dot specs while nerf burst specs (excluding AP PT tho it's not as op as everyone is making it out to be). This left a lot of classes and specs wanting and hurting.

 

Few simple rules should always apply.

 

For capable damage output. Melee > range

 

Overall dmg DOTs > burst

 

As for the melee classes my personal opinion for greatest dmg output while considering DCDs and CCs is

Marauder > PT = Assassin = Operative > Juggernaut

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The person above me has it right... it isnt gear, it isnt skill.. is class balance.

 

no, i dont want all classes to be the same or have the same types of skills, bu i do want them all on a level playing field.

 

for example, if you are going to give dps classes off heal abilities, why do some have longer cooldowns than others? Why do some not have a cooldown at all? Why do some classes have a plethora of defensive skills, and others very few or weaker versions of them?

 

When you get into a 4 man match and the first thing you hear 90% of the time is "kill this class first", something is wrong. It doesnt matter how much burst a class has if it cant survive long enough to use it.

 

The bottom line right now is that one class has all of the above advantages, and very few weaknesses. It is an unfair advantage

 

the first thing that has to happen is class balance, and there are always issues with this when skill trees change or are updated etc... but this needs to happen soon

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Here's the thing though, right now if you were to ask me (levelling a new lvl 40 sage) what is the most OP class all I could answer is "anyone who's lvl 55-59"

 

I have no clue what class really, as they're all more powerful than me. If you're talking having class balance in pvp, that sort of thing is far easier when you're coming from a pre-determined set of stats. It's the same logic as why BW removed skill trees, it's one less variable.

 

If a class is over/under powered, you'll find it far easier when you level the playing field. I'm not saying to have everyone have the same skills but for arguments sake if two ranged classes go at it, one a sage, one a sniper wouldn't you rather have the winner of the fight whoever played their class better rather than some broken bolster system which gives drastically different numbers?

 

Think of it this way, having a system like this bioware would only have to adjust one of two things:

 

1. Pre-determined Stats Set for PvP created by BW

2. Skill powers

 

They're just hard numbers, simple maths. No worrying about countless variations on stats thanks to a dodgy bolster system brought on by countless gear combinations, just the raw stats and the effect they have on the powers.

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Here's the thing though, right now if you were to ask me (levelling a new lvl 40 sage) what is the most OP class all I could answer is "anyone who's lvl 55-59"

 

I have no clue what class really, as they're all more powerful than me. If you're talking having class balance in pvp, that sort of thing is far easier when you're coming from a pre-determined set of stats. It's the same logic as why BW removed skill trees, it's one less variable.

 

If a class is over/under powered, you'll find it far easier when you level the playing field. I'm not saying to have everyone have the same skills but for arguments sake if two ranged classes go at it, one a sage, one a sniper wouldn't you rather have the winner of the fight whoever played their class better rather than some broken bolster system which gives drastically different numbers?

 

Think of it this way, having a system like this bioware would only have to adjust one of two things:

 

1. Pre-determined Stats Set for PvP created by BW

2. Skill powers

 

They're just hard numbers, simple maths. No worrying about countless variations on stats thanks to a dodgy bolster system brought on by countless gear combinations, just the raw stats and the effect they have on the powers.

 

You are talking about MIDS and 55s that are geared and not yet 60. It is irrelevant as they will eventually move out of the bracket. We are talking about elder game PvP.

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I agree class balance is not perfect but I don’t think it is as bad as everyone says either.

Listen range should beat melee if not a priority and allowed to free cast

If melee closes distance than they should beat ranged.

Range should not be able to face tank melee period. This is why we have roots and snares

1 DPS should not beat 1 healer

Each class has a different play style. You have dot overall damage pressure and you have burst.( burst for the most part is suffering atm)

 

There are a few problems I see in the game that makes it impossible to balance.

 

CC abilities.- Stuns work off resolve fine but snares and roots do not and that is fine. However, because they do not respect resolve and do not add resolve so they should work on a DR system. This causes a constant issues between ranged and melee and leads to some of these new abilities that people complain are OP. IMO chain roots are the biggest issue with CC’s atm.

 

Dot stacks.- If you did not allow dot stacks then you would see more thought by players on group comp and a reduction in overall damage and TTK. If you have two serenity shadow’s together, and their dots wouldn’t stack, then only one of them is going to do the damage. So you would want a burst to compliment that dot damage. Then classes would have purpose and would complement each other. Which IMO is how balance should be approached in an MMO.

 

Balance Design. – There is no way to balance each class against each other, To get that balance everyone would need be the same class with the same ability, and you would still have people calling hacks. You cannot balance for skill level and class understanding. You need to balance off a group comp system where types of play styles complement each other.

 

Example

1. all tanks tank and are somewhat similar in abilities.

2. all middle disciplines spec are a burst type playstyle

3. all far right disciplines are a dot damage/utility spec

4. Dots do not stack.

 

You obviously would have to change some utility so two burst would not be desirable over 1 burst 1 utility. That is not hard to do if you give utility to the dot spec to help control the fights. This is hard to do when everyone wants to global someone and the base mentality does not support that design philosophy. For that reason you will never have balance with the current design philosophy of chasing the other classes’ tail. Seems like you’re damned if you do damned if you don’t.

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You are talking about MIDS and 55s that are geared and not yet 60. It is irrelevant as they will eventually move out of the bracket. We are talking about elder game PvP.

 

The thing is though that it isn't irrelevant. For one, it's the main reason I brought this up but for the majority this low level pvp will be peoples first experience of what it is in the game.

 

If it's a massive mess and they feel it's not a fun experience (right now it really isn't) it will turn off players, which in turn will mean they'll never get to experience end game pvp as they'll have zero incentive to queue because of that negative experience.

 

Don't get me wrong, you can't really touch one without the other but if you can put your hand on your heart and swear that pvp in game as it stands is a good system, you're probably the first person who can say that :cool:

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I agree class balance is not perfect but I don’t think it is as bad as everyone says either.

Listen range should beat melee if not a priority and allowed to free cast

If melee closes distance than they should beat ranged.

Range should not be able to face tank melee period. This is why we have roots and snares

1 DPS should not beat 1 healer

Each class has a different play style. You have dot overall damage pressure and you have burst.( burst for the most part is suffering atm)

 

There are a few problems I see in the game that makes it impossible to balance.

 

CC abilities.- Stuns work off resolve fine but snares and roots do not and that is fine. However, because they do not respect resolve and do not add resolve so they should work on a DR system. This causes a constant issues between ranged and melee and leads to some of these new abilities that people complain are OP. IMO chain roots are the biggest issue with CC’s atm.

 

Dot stacks.- If you did not allow dot stacks then you would see more thought by players on group comp and a reduction in overall damage and TTK. If you have two serenity shadow’s together, and their dots wouldn’t stack, then only one of them is going to do the damage. So you would want a burst to compliment that dot damage. Then classes would have purpose and would complement each other. Which IMO is how balance should be approached in an MMO.

 

Balance Design. – There is no way to balance each class against each other, To get that balance everyone would need be the same class with the same ability, and you would still have people calling hacks. You cannot balance for skill level and class understanding. You need to balance off a group comp system where types of play styles complement each other.

 

Example

1. all tanks tank and are somewhat similar in abilities.

2. all middle disciplines spec are a burst type playstyle

3. all far right disciplines are a dot damage/utility spec

4. Dots do not stack.

 

You obviously would have to change some utility so two burst would not be desirable over 1 burst 1 utility. That is not hard to do if you give utility to the dot spec to help control the fights. This is hard to do when everyone wants to global someone and the base mentality does not support that design philosophy. For that reason you will never have balance with the current design philosophy of chasing the other classes’ tail. Seems like you’re damned if you do damned if you don’t.

 

I'd probably play devil's advocate with this and say if BW just put in a system where you can see your own dots on a target, they're probably not going to then only allow one type to be on a target at a time, especially as some builds have their output specifically geared around their dots being up (the likes of virulence comes to mind)

 

There can always be variation and still have balance. Some folks *****ed to me about comparing to balance in mobas but if they're balanced enough where folks have big money tournaments for them and they have such a large roster of characters, they have to be doing something right ;)

 

As far as roots and snares go, I can live with them so long as the system to counter them is solid. Resolve is simple but it works, snares you can get around if you take utilities for the most part now.

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So if PvP gear was to remain for endgame progression, would it be worth it if the single gain was expertise?

 

Lets say this system is put in. So at lvl 60 you go into PvP with zero PvP gear and you're given some generic stats.

 

Also makes PvE gear completely worthless for PvP, so that's one thing that I don't think any PvP player would complain about.

 

The system recognises expertise on an item and still applies it at endgame.

 

So for arguments sake if you have two tier gear, lets say tier 1 gives 4% (relatively low comm requirement), tier 2 (high comm requirement + trade-in) gives 8%. Final cap for 10% expertise buff comes from vendor stims and from pickups in warzones.

 

So you'd need to re-work the value of expertise for that to work.

 

Essentially, you can't re-work one thing without another. With saying expertise is the ONLY stat to focus on for endgame it still gives incentive to get sets without completely breaking the base system.

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your moms got me a black-yellow fortitude crystal for christmas.Can confirm;very popular.

 

Ok, basic statistics: you do not compare an apple to a pear.

 

To put it in other words: guess what is happening if you provide new characters with a special crystal that is better than any other option for a while. Oh, wait, it is going to be most popular.

 

57 million characters, yet only 6,8M has a ship. What crystal do you think most have? Bingo, the one they had got for free. Indeed, most popular.

 

When you read raw data, you do not only look at numbers, but you also have to interpret it and if you find a strange result, you have to think it over.

 

In this case, the error in the statistics is trivial: you can not compare crystals of different level (some or accessible from level10, whereas others only from level50), availability (PVE/PVP exclusive, CM only), relevance (tank/healer/DPS distribution for crit/power/endurance), faction restriction, etc.

 

I hope you understand now why I am sceptical when they say they balance classes based on internal metrics.

PVP is a live thing, you have to experience it through hundreds of warzones and arenas from the perspective of each advanced class, a PVE training dummy simulation has little relevance here.

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I suppose there's only so much you can attribute to stats, a lot of it does just come down to how you play the class.

 

I think it's a lot of things compacted on top of each other though and tbh BW have openly stated a big reason for disciplines is for ease of balance, so why not have a situation where they could control base stats more evenly in warzones?

 

I should stress I'm not saying to give everyone the same stats here. I'm just saying give all sages x stats, give gunslingers y stats etc. so you can get a baseline of normality. Then you can re-work things from there.

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It's still not about stats tho. Proper balance would be if I take 2 DPS classes, have them naked, and in a perfect world set player skill to be equal. The 2 characters should kill each other at the same time.

 

Now I don't know what they set parameters for balance, whether it's an 8 man operation or ranked arena but that is not the case. A marauder vs a sniper the marauder would even be able to touch the snipe before it died. The sniper has enough control that it would be able to do hardly any dmg. I could go on and on but I think the point is clear.

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Stats don't mean a whole lot without considering tempo. If you have to perfectly string together 4 abilities and the other player has options to interrupt, snare, and become immune to pushbacks, or one player has to use channel for max dps while the other player has instant max dps, etc stats are hard to predict. Even abilities that act as an extra interrupt can be enough to gain a tempo and decide a fight .

I don't know if Bioware is ever gonna get a handle on pvp without playing the game more and analyzing encounters.

Edited by MotorCityMan
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Also, when the classes are more balanced in PvP it actually off balances the classes for PvE. When a class that is underperforming gets buffed the PvE'rs complain saying that class is op why can't my class do that, when in PvP it was brought on par with others.
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