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ETA on Advanced Class change?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
ETA on Advanced Class change?

Vandicus's Avatar


Vandicus
09.15.2014 , 06:50 PM | #5531
Quote: Originally Posted by waterboytkd View Post
Which is a huge simplification of the debate on the legalization of drugs or prostitutes. Matters tend to be much more nuanced than "does it bring harm to anyone else". But before I get really off track and start discussing the legalization of prostitution...

The argument really isn't: does it hurt any one individual if I do this? It's: does this feature hurt the game?

I've yet to hear how allowing AC swaps hurts the game. As for being able to buy level 55 characters with BiS gear, the repercussions to the game as a whole are readily apparent:
A) as alts can simply be acquired at level 55, far fewer people will take part in the leveling process, making it much harder for those that do so to get groups;
B) also, gaining a new toon at level 55 quickly and effortlessly gives a player 5 more companions to dispatch on crew skills, which if enough people take advantage of, can greatly flood the market with crafting products while also reducing demand for crafted products, damaging the game economy in a big way;
C) gaining BiS gear obviates the need for PvE end game, killing that play altogether, which ultimately leads to no player retention outside of PvP (which could see a surge as I know quite a few people play this game because it is Star Wars, and may find any way to keep playing), which probably wouldn't get enough attention to really keep this game alive and growing--maybe enough to convince BW to keep the server on, but certainly no new content, and in the end, a very inbred game.

None of the above would result from AC swapping. For those players that don't like alts, AC swapping might reduce their need to level toons, resulting in a lower leveling population, but that only applies to players who don't like alts AND find their current toon unplayable or unenjoyable. If that player doesn't like alts, then I seriously doubt he's rolling new toons just to experiment (but, he MIGHT purchase an AC swap to mess around with something new). So, probably little to no affect on the overall numbers of leveling players.
It violates the principle of no class-swapping.

Which is not something that every game needs to abide by, but asking for AC-swaps is little different from asking to be able to play rage/madness/lethality on a mercenary.

Your argument that AC swapping would not decrease the leveling population even though it obviates the need for alts while the ability to purchase a level 55 would decrease the leveling population is a bit speculative. You've argued for why certain subgroups may or may not behave a certain way, but in either option you're likely to see some people not level alts who otherwise would have. The only real merit I see in debating that would be as to meaningful quantity.
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waterboytkd's Avatar


waterboytkd
09.15.2014 , 06:59 PM | #5532
Quote: Originally Posted by Vandicus View Post
It violates the principle of no class-swapping.

Which is not something that every game needs to abide by, but asking for AC-swaps is little different from asking to be able to play rage/madness/lethality on a mercenary.
I agree. The last MMO I played allowed class swapping, and it worked out well, in my opininion.

Quote:
Your argument that AC swapping would not decrease the leveling population even though it obviates the need for alts while the ability to purchase a level 55 would decrease the leveling population is a bit speculative. You've argued for why certain subgroups may or may not behave a certain way, but in either option you're likely to see some people not level alts who otherwise would have. The only real merit I see in debating that would be as to meaningful quantity.
Fair point.
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LordArtemis's Avatar


LordArtemis
09.15.2014 , 11:22 PM | #5533
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
You are correct, spec is not class. AC's however are much more than simply a spec. They may not be as distinctly classes as you would like, but they are not simply specs, no matter what some may wish.
Naturally I am not calling them specs. I simply pointed out to that person that specs are not classes....in other words, specs play very differently from each other, but that does not make them a class.

Class is not defined by different playstyles. Spec and roles are. Class requires more to be defined.

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Even the devs have stated that they are fundamentally DIFFERENT CLASS designs and that they were treated as FULL CLASSES.
I do not care what the devs have said, ESPECIALLY the original dev team. Nor should you IMO.

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I see them as distinctly different classes within a story line, while you may see them as merely an unchangeable spec.
I see them as watered down playstyles labeled as classes....more than specs, less than classes. However, I would point out that your first statement here is the best argument I have heard from you....how you see them in the end is whats important and it should be.

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Like you, I would prefer if they had made it much clearer whether the AC's are classes or merely a spec.
Yes, we agree on this point.

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If they are classes, I would have preferred that they made it clear that you were choosing STORY at creation and CLASS at level 10 or later.
Sure, or just have it start at level 1.

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If they are merely a spec, I would have preferred that they allowed AC changes as they allow spec changes.
Well, I don't see them as a simple spec. They barely meet the minimum definition as a class in my eyes, but I still call them a class.

LordArtemis's Avatar


LordArtemis
09.15.2014 , 11:27 PM | #5534
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
Even in this thread, the feedback does not seem to be a clear majority, either way. Go back through the thread and I think you will find the numbers of individual posters in favor of allowing class (AC) changes is roughly equal to the number of posters against allowing class (AC) changes. I did take the time to do so. I no longer have the list I compiled, but there was no vast majority, or even a clear one.

Some posters definitely have more posts than others, but the overall numbers of individual posters on each side are very close to equal.

Ultimately, the only thing that matters is what BW thinks.

So far, it seems that they think that your choice of class (AC) is still PERMANENT, no matter how much people wish otherwise.
This is unshakeable logic. And absolutely correct IMO top to bottom.

Heat-Wave's Avatar


Heat-Wave
09.16.2014 , 12:34 AM | #5535
I have some unshakable logic as well...

On a double XP weekend, it is quite possible to power level a new alt from 1 to 55 using XP boosts, KDY, and PvP.

I have two Shadows, I've been wanting to play a Sage for awhile, but spending my weekend powerleveling doesn't interest me.

I'll be happy to give Bioware $10 to convert a Shadow to a Sage.

Now, the "anti-crowd" will say, "but, but, you need to EARN that new AC, you need to level it to learn it, like the rest of us.

Oh really? Power leveling another alt from 1 to 55 in 2 days using KDY and PvP somehow will make me good at it?

What about spending those 2 days actually AT lvl 55 and learning the AC?

The reasons given for why we shouldn't be able to switch AC are just insane and completely ignore reality. The reality is that producing another alt isn't hard, it is just a waste of 15-20 hours of time. Every single defense against that point is hollow.

Nothing, and that includes the strawmans arguments of "but it will lead to BiS sales on the CM and ruin the game", counts the above point.

A full set of BiS gear cannot be obtained in a weekend, but a lvl 55 alt can be.

Heat-Wave's Avatar


Heat-Wave
09.16.2014 , 12:37 AM | #5536
Quote: Originally Posted by ivanhedgehog View Post
BING BING BING!!!!! We have a winner. that is exactly it. human nature. People want laws to stop other people from doing things, not themselves.
Yea... frankly, I think Ratajack simply keeps waving the flag pole, not because there is any sense to his arrangements (which there really isn't), but more because he wants everyone else to have to play his way.

There is just no sense whatsoever to anything he has said.

Aries_cz's Avatar


Aries_cz
09.16.2014 , 04:15 AM | #5537
Quote: Originally Posted by Vhaegrant View Post
My main is a Powertech (Advanced Prototype), I also have a Mercenary (Arsenal) they make extensive use of Rapid Shots (basic free attack), Unload, Rocket Punch, Rail Shot, Flamethrower, Death from Above, Determination, Electro dart (merc has range but effectively the same skill), Energy Shield, Hydraulic Overrides, Chaff Flare, Kolto Overload, Stealth Scan and Thermal Sensor Override.
In fact, their main attack rotation tends to take a couple of skills from the Bounty Hunter ability pool, a couple from the Powertech or Merc pool and then the couple from their chosen Spec.

Good old Sage to Shadow (Sorcerer to Assassin) swap gets brought into the discussion a lot. But, how is the gear change any different to that required for a Powertech respeccing from Tank to DPS (or DPS to Tank)?
Ah, I forgot about Powertechs and DPS merc using lot of same things (because I don't play DPS spec on these classes, I have tank PT and heal Commando). However, they are the most glaring exception from that rule, and most ACs have their rotations based on their own skills or on skills that the other AC does not use (like Snipe on Sniper/Operative).

And as I said, even if I swtich from Tank PT to DPS PT, my gear is still somewhat usable in this new role. I cannot say the same if I swapped from Healer Commando to Tank Vanguard
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Jaxtes's Avatar


Jaxtes
09.16.2014 , 06:30 AM | #5538
Quote: Originally Posted by Aries_cz View Post
I cannot say the same if I swapped from Healer Commando to Tank Vanguard
Healer and Tank have entirely different stat priority. Makes me think the original plan was that even if Ac was switched people wont be able to change roles immediately. Tank<>DPS<>Healer to switch between the more crucial roles you would have had to gear properly anyways.

Savej's Avatar


Savej
09.16.2014 , 08:23 AM | #5539
Quote: Originally Posted by LordArtemis View Post
This is unshakeable logic. And absolutely correct IMO top to bottom.
You can't make judgements on dev points of view based on recent silences or inaction. "Devs are obviously opposed to same sex companion romances"? "Devs hate the idea of open space pve"? "Devs are done with Revan and Kotor references" (pre 2.10 person saying that). Bad logic.

Anzel's Avatar


Anzel
09.16.2014 , 08:52 AM | #5540
I'm so excited for this change. I have like 4 characters that I will switch over as soon as it goes live.
ANZEL - Master Bounty Hunter - Corbantis Galaxy - 06/23/2003
ANZEL - Bounty Hunter / Mercenary - The Corbantis Legacy - 12/13/2011
ANZEL - SWG EMU - CORE 1 Developer - 06/2006