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ETA on Advanced Class change?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
ETA on Advanced Class change?

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
09.15.2014 , 04:01 PM | #5511
Quote: Originally Posted by waterboytkd View Post
And for some, rerolling is fine. Even preferred. But for other people, they would rather drop some real money to dodge the reroll. How is that a bad thing?
Are you saying that there are players who are <gasp> too averse to the modicum of effort required to actually level that new class they want to play and that is their motivation for wanting to change their class (AC) or wanting BW to hand them a new class (AC)?

I never would have guessed that.

Savej's Avatar


Savej
09.15.2014 , 04:03 PM | #5512
Quote: Originally Posted by Aries_cz View Post
As I said before, they don't really use the basic skills. They have them, but are rarely used (unless you are counting the free shot or focus builder strike). Majority of skills you use are skills of your advanced class and your spec.

And it affects the game as a whole in much more than just switching weapons. Say I switch from healing sage to tank shadow. I need completely new set of gear (unlike switching from healing sage to dps sage, where my equipment remains somewhat usable). This could lead to people demanding that all stats are merged into one big pool so that they do not have to get new gear for their switching, and so on and so on (I believe it is called salami method)
switch from tank sin to dps sin - all gear should be changed
switch from healing sage to dps shadow (or dps sage)- no rush to change anything other than mainhand (for the shadow)
Does that counter most of your problems with gear? The biggest change requirements already exist with currently available spec changes.

Guardians and sentinels use a lot of the same buttons. Sure, the buttons that they push the most change from spec to spec or AC but out of ~25 keybinds my focus guardian and sentinel are sharing at least half of the same layout. You can't dismiss that the primary energy mechanics are the same and both acs leap, sweep, strike, slash, awe, enervate, zealous leap, dispatch, master-strike, kick, stasis, force-field, cyclone slash, cc-break, bladestorm (and that's where the top of my head fades but that's more than half of the keybinds that i regularly use with either character). No one's saying they're the same or nearly the same but they aren't as completely different as some spec changes in other very similar games.

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
09.15.2014 , 04:07 PM | #5513
Quote: Originally Posted by Savej View Post

Originally, btw, bw fully intended to allow ac swapping.
Actually, originally BW did NOT intend to allow class (AC) changing. During beta, they did talk about changing their minds and allowing class (AC) changing, but ultimately decided to keep the choice of AC PERMANENT. This decision not to allow class (AC) changing was due to the overwhelming feedback from players.

crubel's Avatar


crubel
09.15.2014 , 04:17 PM | #5514
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
Actually, originally BW did NOT intend to allow class (AC) changing. During beta, they did talk about changing their minds and allowing class (AC) changing, but ultimately decided to keep the choice of AC PERMANENT. This decision not to allow class (AC) changing was due to the overwhelming feedback from players.
I completely disagree with your statement that beta had overwhelming feedback from the players that focused one way or the other. I recall extremely passionate and divided feedback in beta, much as can be seen in this thread and others in the past that have been similar, but player feedback was not and has never been united on this topic. If it was, this thread would not be as long as it is.

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
09.15.2014 , 04:23 PM | #5515
Quote: Originally Posted by LordArtemis View Post
SPEC IS NOT A CLASS.

Why are you incapable of understanding this? Specs are not designed to be classes, rarely if ever are they designed and presented as unique classes....they are designed as SPECS, in order to support roles.

Are you disputing the very definition of spec and role? Somehow spec is now class?

SPECS play fundamentally different in almost all games that have specs. That does NOT make them individual classes, and the contention that a spec is a class is rather foolish IMO.

The problem is bad design, compounded by ridiculous arguments that justify bad design.


Correct me if I am wrong, but every sorcerer SPEC is RANGED. Yes, they may play a little differently, but every one is RANGED. Assassins SPECS are all MELEE.

You are correct, spec is not class. AC's however are much more than simply a spec. They may not be as distinctly classes as you would like, but they are not simply specs, no matter what some may wish.


Even the devs have stated that they are fundamentally DIFFERENT CLASS designs and that they were treated as FULL CLASSES.

I see them as distinctly different classes within a story line, while you may see them as merely an unchangeable spec.

Like you, I would prefer if they had made it much clearer whether the AC's are classes or merely a spec.

If they are classes, I would have preferred that they made it clear that you were choosing STORY at creation and CLASS at level 10 or later.

If they are merely a spec, I would have preferred that they allowed AC changes as they allow spec changes.

crubel's Avatar


crubel
09.15.2014 , 04:35 PM | #5516
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
Correct me if I am wrong, but every sorcerer SPEC is RANGED. Yes, they may play a little differently, but every one is RANGED. Assassins SPECS are all MELEE.
I'm more on the side of allowing AC change, but you do bring up a good point about melee vs range which is mostly a huge different between ACs. Changing my sniper to an operative would be like night and day due to the melee vs ranged points your bring up, and a lot of people tend to prefer one over the other.

I'm curious on your thoughts on this example I have though. I have a BH (Powertech), a Trooper (Commando), and an Assassin. Even though my BH is more melee and the commando more ranged, I have a much easier time switching between my BH and Trooper (two different ACs!), than between any of the specs of my assassin. Every spec on my assassin feels wildy different. Darkness requires I change out everything I'm wearing, and it doesn't feel like a stealth class at all. Deception feels like a traditional stealth/rogue bursty class, and madness is dps, but does not really feel like a traditional stealth class to me. Stealth feels like more of an afterthought in Madness. However, if I was about to switch ACs and stay dps with my BH or Trooper, I would just change an off-hand or mainhand, which is much less worse than going from Madness sin to Darkness sin. Thoughts?

Heat-Wave's Avatar


Heat-Wave
09.15.2014 , 04:40 PM | #5517
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
How does a player new to WoW know how the class he chooses at CREATION will play at level cap? Can he cry "I didn't know it would be like this. WAH! WAH! WAH!" and change his class? No, he cannot. He must level a new character of the new class he wishes to play.

That is exactly how a player can play a new class in this game. One simply has to level that new class.
You are confused...

No one is asking for class changes. We are asking for advanced class changes.

Even I, a proponent of offering choice, don't think class changes make any sense. But AC changes? Total sense.

AC changes are nothing more than a skill respec, nothing changes in the story, the ship, the faction, anything... Slight gear adjustments may need to be made, but that is very minor.

Heat-Wave's Avatar


Heat-Wave
09.15.2014 , 04:43 PM | #5518
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
I see them as distinctly different classes within a story line, while you may see them as merely an unchangeable spec.
Have you stopped to consider for a min that the vast majority of people in this thread do not agree with you?

You're welcome to your point of view and your opinion, but when you're in the minoirty, perhaps there is a reason for it.

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
09.15.2014 , 04:53 PM | #5519
Quote: Originally Posted by waterboytkd View Post
Slippery slope is a argument fallacy. Allowing a person to breath is a slippery slope because they could use that breath to stay alive, and then use their life to kill innocent people. See? Slippery slope. Of course, my example is total bull. That's what a slippery slope is. Bull. Just because BW lets us swap ACs doesn't mean they have to let us buy level 55 toons, or buy BiS gear.

As for your gear swap thing...honestly, who cares? If there was a vendor that let you swap mods and CC for a new mod of the same level and quality, what do I care if you want to dump a bunch of cash on this game and change your dps into a tank or vice versa? Granted, I play for the PvP, so gear grind is a means to an end (and even then, an obnoxious one that needs to be abolished), not the end itself. For PvE, you play to just get the gear, so a gear shortcut essentially cuts out how much PvE endgame you do.

Which is another distinction. AC swap lets people skip past the leveling portion. Not the end game. And it doesn't let someone skip the leveling on a story line they've never done. Only let's them skip the leveling on content they've already run.

And if you're real concern is that someone who has a bunch of money (and is willing to waste it) has an easier go of it than those without...I mean, that's real life, isn't it? And this is a product that a for-profit company is selling. MMO communities are one of the more unique consumers out there. They have the notion that, even though you pay for your product, you should have to work to get satisfaction out of it. This isn't a life, and it isn't a job. It's a game. Why shouldn't some conveniences and shortcuts exist for those who are willing to pay for it?
The claim has been made by many that a player changing his class has no impact on me, therefore it should be allowed.

Well, BW allowing me to buy a character at max level with BIS gear, all companions (including HK-51 and Treek) at max affection with all companion unlocks wold have no affect on you. According to the logic used by many of those who desire class (AC) changes, BW should allow me to buy characters at max level with BIS gear, all companions (including HK-51 and Treek) at max affection and all companion unlocks.

That is the slippery slope you wish to ignore.

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
09.15.2014 , 05:26 PM | #5520
Quote: Originally Posted by crubel View Post
I completely disagree with your statement that beta had overwhelming feedback from the players that focused one way or the other. I recall extremely passionate and divided feedback in beta, much as can be seen in this thread and others in the past that have been similar, but player feedback was not and has never been united on this topic. If it was, this thread would not be as long as it is.
Try going back and reading this thread from the first page. I do not expect you to do so, as that would require some effort and time. Effort is something to which you seem to be averse.

The facts have been presented numerous times. The fact that you choose to ignore or disbelieve them does not make them any less facts.

I never said that the feedback was unanimous, just that it was overwhelmingly in favor of NOT allowing class (AC) changes.

The diverse feedback was what led the devs to consider changing their minds and allowing class (AC) changes, but ultimately the majority of the feedback was against allowing class (AC) changes.