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Guardian/Juggernaut Vigilance/Vengeance Guide (2.8+) by Vesev

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Guardian / Juggernaut
Guardian/Juggernaut Vigilance/Vengeance Guide (2.8+) by Vesev

veSev's Avatar


veSev
07.30.2014 , 04:00 AM | #1
Who am I:
I go by the handle Vesev, Sevs, Ves....I think you get the idea. At the moment, I raid with two guilds. First being Contraband Incorporated on the Jedi Covenant Server which, due to external events, is an 8m progression guild. The second is Proper Villains which is a 16m progression guild on The Ebon Hawk. Both are currently working on Nightmare Dread Fortress and Dread Palace progression.

Currently, I am the top parsing Guardian and Juggernaut in game; this according to the "2.9+ DPS Leaderboard" on the SWTOR forums. Since moving to Ebon Hawk, my Juggernaut has been my parsing character, so you won't find my Guardian parse there but it will be linked later in the guide. I also lead the Guardian/Juggernaut DPS leader boards on both the Ebon Hawk (1.5 Mil Dummy Parsing) and Jedi Covenant (1 Mil Dummy Parse).

In truth, I am making this guide because I have chats regularly with people seeking to expand their knowledge of the Guardian/Juggernaut class, so I figured it was time to get my ideas down on paper rather than explaining things over and over with possible deviations.

The Spec:
This spec is reliant upon three things in particular. One, Master strike/Ravage. They are the big hitters, for if all 3 hits crit in Dread Forged gear and above it can be upwards of 15-20k damage in under three seconds. Two, DoTs. DoTs are damage over time abilities, for they place a debuff on the boss or add that continues to inflict damage over time. And three, critical hits. In addition to MS/Ravage and DoTs, critical hits by all your abilities play a huge role on the damage output. Although we have an auto critical ability in Force Scream/Blade Storm, the critical percentage of Master Strike/Ravage and Overhead Slash/Impale are far more important.

The spec for Vigilance/Vengeance is cookie cutter with 4/36/6. The spec takes advantage of all increase damage tier points available in all three trees after climbing to the top of the Vigilance tree.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#50...osRrfczZf00z.3

The current RNG issues and being a melee class tends to push people away from running a guardian in competitive content, but if you're like me and love the classes brilliance and faults than I am here to help.

Ability Dictionary and Short Hands:
Spoiler


Gearing and Stat Distribution:
Spoiler


The Opener:
Spoiler


Procs:
Spoiler


The Rotation:
Spoiler


Parsing Videos:
Spoiler

Clipping:
Spoiler


Parses:
Spoiler

GrandLordMenace's Avatar


GrandLordMenace
07.30.2014 , 06:12 PM | #2
Pretty good guide, note on Saber Throw: It's worth noting that this is a parsing only problem, since starting when combat is already in progress doesn't give off the problem. I usually parse by starting with Sundering Strike, it removes the problem and allows me to get into the rotation 1 GCD faster. I use this for several real fights too such as Tyrans, I just stand where the tank pulls him to then start my rotation up close.
Rydarus Veneris the Revanchist, Beater #fedaracarrychist
Vigilance Guardian guide on Dulfy! Like my guide? Support my Referral Link!
Last Guardian DPS because dead game

mastervalkar's Avatar


mastervalkar
07.30.2014 , 07:21 PM | #3
Well thought out, great organization, and the overall flow makes it an excellent guide.

Also, thank you for proving that clickers are AS good, if not BETTER, then the non-clicking elitists out there. Well done sir!
Arkaine (Jedi & Sith) - Rendarr (Troopers/BHs) - Prowler (Agents & Smugglers)

veSev's Avatar


veSev
07.30.2014 , 09:35 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by GrandLordMenace View Post
Pretty good guide, note on Saber Throw: It's worth noting that this is a parsing only problem, since starting when combat is already in progress doesn't give off the problem. I usually parse by starting with Sundering Strike, it removes the problem and allows me to get into the rotation 1 GCD faster. I use this for several real fights too such as Tyrans, I just stand where the tank pulls him to then start my rotation up close.
On the Tyrans fight, I tend to use ST - Smash - Impale then FL once the OT takes him to the first platform then go into my opener/rotation. This is on NiM of course which I will admit I am not entirely comfortable with the fight yet having only done it three times; HM I would jump in the same as I do for my parsing.

Parsing is preference, I mean you can stand up close or use ST+FL to start as I do. If you start with SS, I found that there is really no difference in GCDs between starting with SS or ST - FL, but it does delay the use of Combat Focus I would think based on the Focus generated. Ultimately, I think the GCD difference you mentioned is partly due to my preference on openers.

Quote: Originally Posted by mastervalkar View Post
Well thought out, great organization, and the overall flow makes it an excellent guide.

Also, thank you for proving that clickers are AS good, if not BETTER, then the non-clicking elitists out there. Well done sir!
I appreciate the feedback man. Clicking vs. keybinding is more preference based I believe. You can be good either way.

uriaces's Avatar


uriaces
07.31.2014 , 05:55 AM | #5
Nice guide Vesev. I am not using the same opener ( lp ms and no pb or os before my ms) but there is very few difference between those two rotations.... .

And im always clicking, never using binds and it's working pretty well i think.... .

Glad to see you on the top, i don't know if i'll made some parse before retiring.... maybe :P.

Good luck with you're guild on the DP.
Kishekzun Guardian

<IMPERIUM> Mantle of the force
Twitch : http://www.twitch.tv/kishekzun

Kaos_KidSWTOR's Avatar


Kaos_KidSWTOR
07.31.2014 , 07:14 AM | #6
Good Guide, did notice a few typo's like the spec you linked was a 4/36/6, but you said earlier it was 3/36/6 got a little confused there, and you misspelled Keening in the ability nomenclature area. other than that great guide 10/10 would use if i was actually going to play Vigi Guard/Veng Jugg, but i scrapped the idea in favor of a Tank in both flavors.

veSev's Avatar


veSev
07.31.2014 , 10:20 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by uriaces View Post
Nice guide Vesev. I am not using the same opener ( lp ms and no pb or os before my ms) but there is very few difference between those two rotations.... .

And im always clicking, never using binds and it's working pretty well i think.... .

Glad to see you on the top, i don't know if i'll made some parse before retiring.... maybe :P.

Good luck with you're guild on the DP.
Thanks man! You should definitely parse before leaving. We need a Guardian to break 4k now lol.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kaos_KidSWTOR View Post
Good Guide, did notice a few typo's like the spec you linked was a 4/36/6, but you said earlier it was 3/36/6 got a little confused there, and you misspelled Keening in the ability nomenclature area. other than that great guide 10/10 would use if i was actually going to play Vigi Guard/Veng Jugg, but i scrapped the idea in favor of a Tank in both flavors.
I dont see where I mentioned 3/36/6? But good catch on the typos for Keening. Appreciate the feedback man.

GrandLordMenace's Avatar


GrandLordMenace
07.31.2014 , 10:30 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by veSev View Post
On the Tyrans fight, I tend to use ST - Smash - Impale then FL once the OT takes him to the first platform then go into my opener/rotation. This is on NiM of course which I will admit I am not entirely comfortable with the fight yet having only done it three times; HM I would jump in the same as I do for my parsing.

Parsing is preference, I mean you can stand up close or use ST+FL to start as I do. If you start with SS, I found that there is really no difference in GCDs between starting with SS or ST - FL, but it does delay the use of Combat Focus I would think based on the Focus generated. Ultimately, I think the GCD difference you mentioned is partly due to my preference on openers.



I appreciate the feedback man. Clicking vs. keybinding is more preference based I believe. You can be good either way.
Well actually combat focus isn't delayed at all. When doing tyrans in HM at least, what usually happens is I will stand on tank platform, tank will pull him in. My rotation then goes something like:

Sundering Strike -> Plasma Brand + Combat Focus -> Master Strike -> Overhead Slash -> Onward.

I also think that your rotation when using Saber Throw with OHS first flows BETTER than mine when using saber throw first on the dummy due to no incoming damage making resource more of a PITA, when using plasma master strike there is this funky little window where you have to waste 1 focus in the opener with Sunder in the first 3 cycles or so, OHS opener doesn't have that. On a boss though due to the incoming damage I'd say it's more feasible to use Plasma First Damage Wise IMHO but the difference is like arguing which is better, Chickens or turkeys.

I definitely prefer Plasma First due to A: Higher crit chance, B: More sustained damage (Plasma does more damage + DoT than OHS but only barely) and C: Elemental roxxxxx.

Also not sure if I saw this but you should probably have a section that explains how ability usages should line up. Do you use BS with 1 stack occasionally? Your crit chance is 100% but your BS and OHS usages line up very well. I assume either you are very lucky and whenever you use it with 1 stack (PRobably not often, only a few times in a 1.5 parse) or you've figured out an anti RNG 2stack all the time method that I haven't (through some combination of preplanning the keening dispatch maybe?) either way good guide
Rydarus Veneris the Revanchist, Beater #fedaracarrychist
Vigilance Guardian guide on Dulfy! Like my guide? Support my Referral Link!
Last Guardian DPS because dead game

veSev's Avatar


veSev
07.31.2014 , 01:00 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by GrandLordMenace View Post
Well actually combat focus isn't delayed at all. When doing tyrans in HM at least, what usually happens is I will stand on tank platform, tank will pull him in. My rotation then goes something like:

Sundering Strike -> Plasma Brand + Combat Focus -> Master Strike -> Overhead Slash -> Onward.

I also think that your rotation when using Saber Throw with OHS first flows BETTER than mine when using saber throw first on the dummy due to no incoming damage making resource more of a PITA, when using plasma master strike there is this funky little window where you have to waste 1 focus in the opener with Sunder in the first 3 cycles or so, OHS opener doesn't have that. On a boss though due to the incoming damage I'd say it's more feasible to use Plasma First Damage Wise IMHO but the difference is like arguing which is better, Chickens or turkeys.

I definitely prefer Plasma First due to A: Higher crit chance, B: More sustained damage (Plasma does more damage + DoT than OHS but only barely) and C: Elemental roxxxxx.

Also not sure if I saw this but you should probably have a section that explains how ability usages should line up. Do you use BS with 1 stack occasionally? Your crit chance is 100% but your BS and OHS usages line up very well. I assume either you are very lucky and whenever you use it with 1 stack (PRobably not often, only a few times in a 1.5 parse) or you've figured out an anti RNG 2stack all the time method that I haven't (through some combination of preplanning the keening dispatch maybe?) either way good guide
At the end of the day it really is a matter of opinion or rather the "placebo effect" in using OHS or PB first. The one thing I have noticed, similar to Dirty Fighting with Gunslingers, DoTs play a role, but they dont make or kill a parse. The critical % of MS and OHS do however, if you look at my parses I have near RNGJesus critical %s on Ravage, Impale and Vicious Throw. DoTs sustain our damage, but the burst you see to hit the 4k mark is purely based on critical % on those three abilities.

The only time I come close to hitting BS with 1 stack is during the lull point because if Dispatch doesnt proc I am hitting BS with 1 stack. If it does, I clip MS with Dispatch then BS. So occasionally I do hit it with 1 stack, but its rare. Beyond that, all my abilities line up in a manner that I never hit BS without 2 stacks in other series of the rotation.

Also, I welcome the challenge Rydarus .

GrandLordMenace's Avatar


GrandLordMenace
07.31.2014 , 03:47 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by veSev View Post
At the end of the day it really is a matter of opinion or rather the "placebo effect" in using OHS or PB first. The one thing I have noticed, similar to Dirty Fighting with Gunslingers, DoTs play a role, but they dont make or kill a parse. The critical % of MS and OHS do however, if you look at my parses I have near RNGJesus critical %s on Ravage, Impale and Vicious Throw. DoTs sustain our damage, but the burst you see to hit the 4k mark is purely based on critical % on those three abilities.

The only time I come close to hitting BS with 1 stack is during the lull point because if Dispatch doesnt proc I am hitting BS with 1 stack. If it does, I clip MS with Dispatch then BS. So occasionally I do hit it with 1 stack, but its rare. Beyond that, all my abilities line up in a manner that I never hit BS without 2 stacks in other series of the rotation.

Also, I welcome the challenge Rydarus .
I notice something similar with blade storm. While it's true that DoT uptime doesn't ACTUALLY make or break a parse, it does wonders to stablize it imho, it's an impossible goal that strengthens the rotation as a whole, back when blade storm was lower priority for me I would barely skate 3500 on average, but increasing blade storm uptime, even with the occasional one stack, really helped me DPS better, as far as average DPS goes. I do agree that Ravage and Impale crits make or break a parse, vicious throw does too.

Personally the Vigi spec as a whole needs the ravage/ master strike damage evened across all the ticks. The RNG to get the third tick to crit is extremely annoying.

I think the Placebo effect has something to do with it. People can be shaped by prior experiences and honestly even if Overhead or Plasma is superior, it's all about the player. I'd be far more comfortable with plasma first because A: It fits my logic of Plasma doing higher DPS per activation, B: It's almost universally the way I practice, and C: I really like the PB animation. However there are pros and cons to everything. Overhead has better burst and it's arguable that having it crit from square one with relics and adrenals frontloaded outweighs the long term DoT damage. It's all semantics.

At the point where you are able to get consistent, reliable, high DPS out of a gear set with your rotation, is it really necessary to reinvent the wheel for a mere 20 DPS that may or may not actually go your way? After all if it ain't broken, why fix it? Especially if the fix isn't even certain or even that effective? Heck Kishekzun managed to dominate the guardian leaderboards without anything in front of his Master Strike LOL. Was it optimal? Probably not IMHO, but who knows? It worked for him and he obviously played it that way to death, who are we to change his rotation?

Just my two cents.
Rydarus Veneris the Revanchist, Beater #fedaracarrychist
Vigilance Guardian guide on Dulfy! Like my guide? Support my Referral Link!
Last Guardian DPS because dead game