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Do tanks need a dps buff to keep up with the current state of dps?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Do tanks need a dps buff to keep up with the current state of dps?

Deewe's Avatar


Deewe
07.13.2014 , 06:40 PM | #31
To be honest I suck at being a tank but interestingly enough it's never an issue with good groups as they know how to adapt.

So in the end, apart the gear, it all depends with who you are grouped with.
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ninjonxb's Avatar


ninjonxb
07.13.2014 , 06:40 PM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by Kurin View Post
This generated a bunch of interesting responses. Most of which, quite honestly, are not going to be of benefit to the AVERAGE tank, when it comes to controlling aggro.

For example, of course I have main stat armorings in 3 of my armor pieces and my hilt. I know that's going to help me put out more dps, which equates to more threat (and FYI, gives me higher defensive mitigation as well). But more importantly, what AVERAGE tank would know that. And HOW would they know that, if they aren't deep, deep into the numbers. It's quite honestly counter-intuitive to think you should put DPS stuff on your tank to make you a better tank.

Further, the responses here were not from average players, or better yet, below average players. (little known fact: more than 90% of the driving public thinks they are a better than average driver) Judging from the information most of you have shared, you either want a more challenging game, or you already known all the "tricks of the trade" and thus don't need this change. Good for you. But what do you propose to help the AVERAGE tank? Are you HAPPY with more and more tactical flashpoints? Because they are making me absolutely sick. And I don't think BW is anywhere near done rolling them out. Will we ever again see something like pre-nerf Lost Island? Sadly, I think the answer looks more and more like no...

As I wrote: I know the tricks of the trade as well. But I've pugged with enough average tanks (and sadly, the below average), to know unquestionably, that these tricks of the trade are not common knowledge.

Further, I do not believe that "taunt and threat drop on cooldown" should NEED be part of EVERY SINGLE player's rotation. But that's essentially the state of the game today. And thus, I think the game is actually broken. I was indirect in saying so, but I believe the best among us have all learned how to deal with this broken game, but it doesn't change my belief that it is, in fact, broken. Sure, broken games are more challenging to work around. But broken is still broken.
I fully understand what you are trying to say and I agree that the vast majority of the people playing this game will never look into how to play their class to the most of its potential.

However other games have attempted to make class changes all in the name of making something easier.
WoW is a horrible offender of this one.

Now what you are asking is a simple one I will admit. Simply increasing the amount of DPS that Tanks put out instead of actually making the role itself easier (removing abilities).

However it is an extremely slipperly slope (started with good intentions) that will end with the over simplification of all classes in the game.
WoW started out the same way. They started with small changes here or there and continues to the **** that Pandaria brought.

cvak's Avatar


cvak
07.13.2014 , 07:06 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by Kurin View Post
This generated a bunch of interesting responses. Most of which, quite honestly, are not going to be of benefit to the AVERAGE tank, when it comes to controlling aggro.

For example, of course I have main stat armorings in 3 of my armor pieces and my hilt. I know that's going to help me put out more dps, which equates to more threat (and FYI, gives me higher defensive mitigation as well). But more importantly, what AVERAGE tank would know that. And HOW would they know that, if they aren't deep, deep into the numbers. It's quite honestly counter-intuitive to think you should put DPS stuff on your tank to make you a better tank.

Further, the responses here were not from average players, or better yet, below average players. (little known fact: more than 90% of the driving public thinks they are a better than average driver) Judging from the information most of you have shared, you either want a more challenging game, or you already known all the "tricks of the trade" and thus don't need this change. Good for you. But what do you propose to help the AVERAGE tank? Are you HAPPY with more and more tactical flashpoints? Because they are making me absolutely sick. And I don't think BW is anywhere near done rolling them out. Will we ever again see something like pre-nerf Lost Island? Sadly, I think the answer looks more and more like no...

As I wrote: I know the tricks of the trade as well. But I've pugged with enough average tanks (and sadly, the below average), to know unquestionably, that these tricks of the trade are not common knowledge.

Further, I do not believe that "taunt and threat drop on cooldown" should NEED be part of EVERY SINGLE player's rotation. But that's essentially the state of the game today. And thus, I think the game is actually broken. I was indirect in saying so, but I believe the best among us have all learned how to deal with this broken game, but it doesn't change my belief that it is, in fact, broken. Sure, broken games are more challenging to work around. But broken is still broken.
You cannot expect the average tank to hold aggro on a boss vs dps that are above average. An average tank can easily hold aggro against average dps, especially since they have two taunts and the dps, should they get lucky, also have an aggro dump. If a dps does not know how to use aggro dump when the boss is hitting them, then that dps is not average, but piss-poor, and should be told accordingly as all they do is f- up for everyone else.

Please tell me why the average tank should have it easier to play their role, compared to the average dps? A dps that does not know a decent rotation will fail every and all dps checks corresponding to his gear level. Why should it be different for the tanks?
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Rafaman's Avatar


Rafaman
07.13.2014 , 07:44 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by Kurin View Post
Further, I do not believe that "taunt and threat drop on cooldown" should NEED be part of EVERY SINGLE player's rotation. But that's essentially the state of the game today. And thus, I think the game is actually broken. I was indirect in saying so, but I believe the best among us have all learned how to deal with this broken game, but it doesn't change my belief that it is, in fact, broken. Sure, broken games are more challenging to work around. But broken is still broken.

Broken? How so? Knowing when to taunt is very important and if you are decent tank threat shouldn't always be on cool down. If you are tanking and spam your taunts you aren't an average tank, you are below average and that is how it should be. You don't start a fight with a taunt, it is a situation skill, not a part of any rotation. Again, as it should be.

The same is true for threat dumps. I have a well geared Sent along with my tanks and I occasionally may pull a boss, I use the threat dump then, but that is rare occasion to be honest. It is not a part of any rotation.

No, the game isn't broken. To be effective at end game you have to know your class. It comes with experience. That includes knowing how to manage threat. That is not and indication that the game is broken.

Kurin's Avatar


Kurin
07.13.2014 , 07:44 PM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by cvak View Post
Please tell me why the average tank should have it easier to play their role, compared to the average dps? A dps that does not know a decent rotation will fail every and all dps checks corresponding to his gear level. Why should it be different for the tanks?
This is a great question, so thank you for asking it.

A below average dps that doesn't know a decent rotation doesn't cause a SM ops run to fail; they don't cause a flashpoint run to fail; they don't really cause any problems...they just make things take longer to accomplish. There simply are not below average dps on NiM operations teams that will ever see a true dps check.

in contrast, a tank that cannot hold aggro will indeed cause an ops or flashpoint run to fail. They will be called a fail tank. They will have groups rage quite on them. And here's my point: they don't know why they are failing! Seriously, no MMO out there makes holding aggro as difficult as it is in SWTOR. NONE.

Comparing tanking to dps in general, I would say every tank must be able to play their class better than every dps, to be considered average at either. Straight up. In SWTOR, tanking is simply harder. in almost every fight, tanks have more things to keep track of and more overall responsibilities that they need to maintain, for the team to be successful.

I think we all understand that it is quite true that with a "bad tank" there is almost no way for the group to succeed. A tank that faces a boss toward the group, that constantly stands in stupid, that doesn't pick up the adds in a timely manner, that doesn't watch their "stacks" and swaps before they die, etc., is simply impossible to workaround.

Outside NiM content, a DPS that fails can be worked around. You can rez at least once. Heck, you can finish the encounter with them dead (I can't count how many times my group has been relieved our melee dps simply die during HM Tyrans, so that they don't leave fire puddles on the tanks). Their dps makes things faster, but it's not a factor for success in 99.9% of the pve content in this game.

I'll repeat my position: tanking is harder than it should be in SWTOR, and a significant reason it is harder than it should be, is that a standard tanking rotation does not generate enough threat to keep up with a standard dps rotation for a tank and dps of equivalent gear. Add gear imbalances to the mix, and the AVERAGE tank will struggle to maintain control during any fight.
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TX_Angel's Avatar


TX_Angel
07.14.2014 , 12:06 AM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by Kufuffelupagus View Post
The next step from being a AVERAGE DPS to a GREAT DPS (who rips aggro off average tanks) is to actively learn more about their rotation and how to make the best and most timely use of their abilities. They check out parse logs, their class's forums, and ask more knowledgable players for help.

The next step from being an AVERAGE TANK to a tank that holds threat against great DPS is exactly the same. They need to actively want to be better and ask questions and find information. The only barriers I see there is the player themselves, and the community.

Well-written post, I just don't think the answer is increasing tank DPS if good (which is technically higher than average) tanks don't have aggro issues.
This is a game, not a homework assignment... the idea that most players, or even many players, will visit forums or even KNOW what parse is... is crazy...

They log in and want to play, not study...

They outnumber you 20 to 1... maybe 50 to 1... the idea that there is much of a future in games that require STUDY of parse logs and visiting forums to learn tanking... is just nuts...

You don't have to like it, but I speak the truth...

TX_Angel's Avatar


TX_Angel
07.14.2014 , 12:09 AM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Daewan View Post
The solution already exists for how to become a better tank. If they don't use the knowledge, that is not something the game can or should fix.
Yes, don't increase the DPS, but do increase the threat multiplier...

Instead of 2 points of threat per DPS, make it 3... that would keep actual damage the same, but make it much easier to hold the enemy in place.

TX_Angel's Avatar


TX_Angel
07.14.2014 , 12:14 AM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Rafaman View Post
No, the game isn't broken. To be effective at end game you have to know your class. It comes with experience. That includes knowing how to manage threat. That is not and indication that the game is broken.
Remind me how much end game content we've gotten in the past year?

DF/DP? That's about it...

Way, way too many people are all hardcore and think everyone else should be as well. Most people aren't, most people have a life and just want to enjoy the GAME.

Yes you say, there is plenty of non hard mode end game stuff for them, right?

Yea, there is, look at those shiny new tactical flashpoints... expect more of those and don't be shocked to find the next ops, if there are any, to have some form of "tactical" aspect to them to better cater to the casual gamer.

slafko's Avatar


slafko
07.14.2014 , 02:18 AM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by theSCARAYone View Post
To make it even easier to maintain threat? Sure, why not.
Indeed. I could go AFK and eat something. Right now I'm glued to my chair and have to entertain myself by accepting companion missions and sending them out on new ones.
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Uvirith's Avatar


Uvirith
07.14.2014 , 02:18 AM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by ninjonxb View Post
Making changes because some people don't know something is a very slippery slope that I don't want to see Bioware go down.
We have seen games (WoW) go down the path of over simplifying a game and removing things because people didn't bother to do some reading.
WoW simplified many things, but the way the trinity works is not on of it, and heroicraids are most definitely waaay harder than anything ToR has to offer in terms of difficulty.

WoW actually made the right step, going away from the traditional threatmanagement to active mitigation as main-encountermechanics.

And now tell me, whats more fun. Watching the fight trying to avoid any damage, positioning, controlled burst etc. or having to maintain a perfect skillrotation in order to balance a invisible ressource between the raid?

Dont get me wrong, I like ToR more than WoW, but WoW most definitely has the better Raid-Encounters, simply due to the fact that they modernized their holy trinity.