OK this is getting rather silly regarding hard mode Flashpoint GF

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OK this is getting rather silly regarding hard mode Flashpoint GF

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RRZZRR

07.10.2014 , 02:14 PM \| #81	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by Kalfear Im not looking for a hand out here BTW. HardMode should be hard. adjust the HM flashpoints to make them doable with out full on tank they are not hard at all and can be done without tank, most of them can be 2-manned and some even soloed. just find dps who can que as tank Quote: Originally Posted by Kalfear I know I want to earn Ultimate coms and have zero interest in doing the whole Raiding guild nonsense again. Id much rather do a few hardmode flash points then do a ops/raid./ can't understand that, FPs are quite boring and what's the point of gearing up if you're not going to raid?

Kalfear

07.10.2014 , 02:16 PM \| #82	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by Lotharofxev Frustrated people who don't queue anymore? It's the same mentality in WZs. Why should anybody subsidize (carry) bads who can't call out inc? So what happens? The frustrated player TRYING to do the right thing quits - leaving the bads to complete. A simple mechanic to fix this is to make sure that no random WZ / FP "pop" includes people on your ignore list. its already that way for FPs Loth But wasnt for WZ last I saw (not that I do WZs any longer anyways)
In regards to lessening F2P and Preferred restrictions In GAMING, as in LIFE, You get what you pay for No game restriction is so dire that $15.00/month will not eliminate it

Warrgames

07.10.2014 , 02:21 PM \| #83	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by Kalfear So WOW do some people want to try and make this about me it seems so lets clear up many misquotes and misstatements 1) I normally play healers, not DPS, and yes the 8 hours and 12 hour times listed included multiple healer characters in queues. Only have a couple DPS, so that part of arguement goes out with the bathwater. 2) I am the most silent, non confrontational player you will meet in a FP. So for those taking 3-4 words from my Original post and misquoting it. Sorry not on anyones hate list from abusing Tanks. I fully understand how rare they are and go out of my way to make their jobs easier if I can. And btw, not every single tank is competent as many try to show here. I said 2nd group yesterday was a bad group. Healer in that group (merc with almost 40k health but only doing low 500s for his blaster shot heals...my Merc when speced heals is well over 600 hps for same heal because I'm not end heavy and rather stacked aim/power) who was clearly in over his head. Well it didn't help that the tank was not pulling the Mob in the Desert encounter of Czerka flash point to the green pods for him to destroy and weaken himself. Tank just stood fighting and not moving even when I would be calling location when a pod was lite up. NOT every tank is a great player as some like to claim here. This tank could definitely benefit from his/her class being easier to play. 3) For those saying "Solution is, make a tank". WHAT PART OF I leveled a Guardian tank to 50 last year only to find out the class is hell to play for me. Next up are my Shadow Tank and my Vangard Tank. So sorry if reading a full post asking to much before your smart * and non helpful response. 4) The end goal of every player is NOT to do OPS. I did the hard mode ops stuff and put up with the elitist attitudes of HM Raiders before Makeb. Been there done that, have no desire at all to return to running ops. Its the same crappy attitude that eventually takes over in ops guilds for the last 23 years In MMORPGs. Doesnt matter how well they get on now, the drama and nonsense always comes up in those guilds and I have no interest in it anymore. Just wanna log in, run my dailies, weekly (CZ/Oricon/ maybe Makeb), do my tactical and HM Flashpoints. And do events when on. That shouldnt be that big a desire to be honest to successfully fill 5) In previous games Ive played the tank role very successfully. LOVED my paladin in DAoC and was very good at the class. Loved my Tank in Rift and again had great success with it. Loved my tank styled character in UO and EQ and had success there as well. Did NOT like the tank spec here in SW:TOR for Guardians (as I said in OP, dont know about Shadow or Vangard yet as both are very low level still for me). So its not like Im saying this with out experiencing at least one of the tank specs. I found the Guardian tank way to busy and convoluted for what should be a pretty straightforward experience truth be told. Truth is on Harbinger server we have a lack of tanks going in the Queue for GF HM. The few still remaining in game when they do join me, the que pops instantly when we que up. INSTANTLY Fills 2 dps or dps and healer slots. So doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out with tank instant fill ins no tank and doesn't matter if healer or dps, your waiting hours Geeee, it looks like there is a shortage of tanks queing based on THE FACTS. Ending:** The problem on my server is there is no tanks queing up for GF HM and players sit for hours and hours hoping for a pop. Now you can act all ignorant and almighty and blame DPSer if you want I've seen good and bad DPSers, just like I've seen good and bad healers and tanks No class has a better track record over the other on player behavior and misbehavior But no one also can fill in for the missing classes when one goes dry like tanks have on my server The game literally needs to do something to attract more tank spec players You shouldnt have people sitting for multiple hours every day hoping for que pops Bad groups will happen when you use GF shrug it off and try again Id dare say that most groups are good to great groups in GF Its maybe 10% of time you get a bad group so amazes me how much some people dwell on and focus on that 10% rather then seeing the benefit and good experience of the other 90% of time. The problem is the shortage of tanks A bad player can be taught to do better A non existant player will remain non existant If the issue was a teaching issue I could handle that ITS NOT WOW you total didn't read the replies or misunderstood them. Let me sum it up for you. Playing a tank isn't hard and there are player out there that enjoy playing that role. Just most player that enjoy playing a tank hate dealing with DPS that you get in GF. Because of these bad DPS (DPS that doesn't understand grouping) tank don't use GF for HM FP therefore there is what seems to be a shortage. People that play tanks tried to explain to you its not game design its poor players is why there is a shortage.
"I don't like Tatooine, but I do like saying Tatooine." Theron Shan Referral link: http://www.swtor.com/r/fSvsyK Click for free stuff. "Nonsense repeated doesn't make it truth." Arcaan

Jeweledleah

07.10.2014 , 02:22 PM \| #84	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by Kalfear PS: Ive never understood this btw Tank players really bad for this "I dont do Flashpoints because some players abuse me" Thats like saying "I dont swim because I once didnt know how to" If someone abuses you in a flashpoint, put them on ignore and you will never EVER be grouped again with them in a GF Flashpoint/OPS But for some reason many ion this thread seem to think if one person abusive, then its reasonable to punish the entire player base for it. Just ignore the abusers. Make their behavior have repercussions The more idiots you put on ignore The better your groups will become as you have weeded out many of the chronic problem players Dont punish the whole for the bad behavior of the few its more like... I don't go swimming in that particular pool becasue there are people there who will deliberately try to pull me under and that's just not fun, so I stick to the pool where I know I can swim with people who are not horrible to me. and yes, you can ignore idiots. but its STILL. NOT. FUN. to run into them. yes, tanks can also be bad players, heck I just ran with one of those and it pretty much resulted in me logging out of that particular healer and going of to play solo on a baby alt. do you know what will solve some of the problems with groupfinder and lack of tanks IN groupfinder? making a prerequisite to queue. MUST pass the in game training to be able to queue for particular role. you not liking tanking mechanics of the guardian doesn't make guardians actualy unfun to play. I enjoy my jugg tank a great deal. especially saber reflect. my god, I love that ability almost as much as I love death from above. (and if guardian is convoluted for you, shadow is going to be worse, as they are very active tanks, mitigation wise and there are a lot of cooldowns you will be watching and juggling) simplifying mechanics is not going to change the fact that bad groups happen and they are not fun. (and in my experience its more like 50/50 then 10%, though lately its been getting worse. at least pubside on my server.) not queueing for pugs is not something we do to PUNISH the rest of the playerbase. we do that becasue we would rather NOT punish ourselves, becasue guess what? we owe the rest of the player base absolutely NOTHING.

DarthTHC

07.10.2014 , 02:24 PM \| #85	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by Kalfear Blah blah blah... This tank could definitely benefit from his/her class being easier to play. Blah blah blah... 5) In previous games Ive played the tank role very successfully. LOVED my paladin in DAoC and was very good at the class. Loved my Tank in Rift and again had great success with it. Loved my tank styled character in UO and EQ and had success there as well. Did NOT like the tank spec here in SW:TOR for Guardians (as I said in OP, dont know about Shadow or Vangard yet as both are very low level still for me). So its not like Im saying this with out experiencing at least one of the tank specs. Blah Blah Blah... Geeee, it looks like there is a shortage of tanks queing based on THE FACTS. Blah blah blah... The game literally needs to do something to attract more tank spec players Blah blah blah... The problem is the shortage of tanks Blah blah blah... Dont punish the whole for the bad behavior of the few Tanks are not hard to play. I have a tank of each type - Vanguard, Guardian, and Shadow. None of them is remotely challenging. Vanguard is easymode. Shadow is almost as easy. Guardian means I can't hold a beer in one hand while using the other to play. You played a Paladin in WoW? So you're used to setting your cat to dance on your keyboard and calling that "tanking"? Starting to see the issue. You say there is a shortage of tanks. That's not the case. The case is there is a shortage of tanks willing to queue for randoms via GF. There is a subtle but important difference, and only in that difference can we find the actual problem and thus deduce the actual solution to the problem... which I'll come back around to shortly. You also say don't punish the whole for the bad behavior of the few. It's not my job, as a competent tank, to ensure anyone's enjoyment of the game except my own. I'm not punishing anyone. I'm choosing not to queue for randoms because the people I get grouped with in them make my gaming time unfun in a variety of ways all too frequently. That's not me punishing you, but you punishing me. Why should I have to put up with that? I mean, I can log in, type, "/g Anyone up for a hardmode?", and have half a dozen yesses within 30 seconds. If I can do that, why should I put up with the garbage I'm all too likely to get stuck with in the random? And there's where we come around to the actual problem and thus the actual solution to the problem. The actual problem is that, in a game that is supposed to be fun, players we tanks get grouped with make the game not only unfun, but oftentimes downright painful. This isn't a system problem; the game isn't too hard to play for us. We're pretty damned good at it, if we do say so ourselves. This is a person / behavior problem. The solution to the problem, the way to get more competent tanks like me and the many others who've told you the exact same thing I am, is to stop making the random HM experience suck for us. To change the behavior of the people we get grouped with. To have them behave civilly and play competently. That's truly all it would take for me, and I'm sure other players who both love tanking and can do it competently will echo that sentiment. To solve this problem, the game doesn't need to change. Not a bit. Its players need to change their behavior.

wiredgutter

07.10.2014 , 02:26 PM \| #86	Quote
I disagree with the OP. I find tanking very fun. I do a HM on my PT and sin every day or two. Sure, there are bad dps sometimes and healers that demand guard and such, but I just roll with it and carry them. My tanks quickly got geared enough to do so. However, my main character is a pvp dps. I don't do GF with him since I hate the wait. But the argument that tanks require 1000 buttons compared to dps is just silly. A well played dps often has more buttons and requires just as much awareness as a tank. If you have problems with the many buttons in MMOs, I suggest getting a naga razor mouse, they are fantastic.

ninjonxb

07.10.2014 , 02:32 PM \| #87	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by Kalfear So WOW do some people want to try and make this about me it seems so lets clear up many misquotes and misstatements 1) I normally play healers, not DPS, and yes the 8 hours and 12 hour times listed included multiple healer characters in queues. Only have a couple DPS, so that part of arguement goes out with the bathwater. 2) I am the most silent, non confrontational player you will meet in a FP. So for those taking 3-4 words from my Original post and misquoting it. Sorry not on anyones hate list from abusing Tanks. I fully understand how rare they are and go out of my way to make their jobs easier if I can. And btw, not every single tank is competent as many try to show here. I said 2nd group yesterday was a bad group. Healer in that group (merc with almost 40k health but only doing low 500s for his blaster shot heals...my Merc when speced heals is well over 600 hps for same heal because I'm not end heavy and rather stacked aim/power) who was clearly in over his head. Well it didn't help that the tank was not pulling the Mob in the Desert encounter of Czerka flash point to the green pods for him to destroy and weaken himself. Tank just stood fighting and not moving even when I would be calling location when a pod was lite up. NOT every tank is a great player as some like to claim here. This tank could definitely benefit from his/her class being easier to play. 3) For those saying "Solution is, make a tank". WHAT PART OF I leveled a Guardian tank to 50 last year only to find out the class is hell to play for me. Next up are my Shadow Tank and my Vangard Tank. So sorry if reading a full post asking to much before your smart * and non helpful response. 4) The end goal of every player is NOT to do OPS. I did the hard mode ops stuff and put up with the elitist attitudes of HM Raiders before Makeb. Been there done that, have no desire at all to return to running ops. Its the same crappy attitude that eventually takes over in ops guilds for the last 23 years In MMORPGs. Doesnt matter how well they get on now, the drama and nonsense always comes up in those guilds and I have no interest in it anymore. Just wanna log in, run my dailies, weekly (CZ/Oricon/ maybe Makeb), do my tactical and HM Flashpoints. And do events when on. That shouldnt be that big a desire to be honest to successfully fill 5) In previous games Ive played the tank role very successfully. LOVED my paladin in DAoC and was very good at the class. Loved my Tank in Rift and again had great success with it. Loved my tank styled character in UO and EQ and had success there as well. Did NOT like the tank spec here in SW:TOR for Guardians (as I said in OP, dont know about Shadow or Vangard yet as both are very low level still for me). So its not like Im saying this with out experiencing at least one of the tank specs. I found the Guardian tank way to busy and convoluted for what should be a pretty straightforward experience truth be told. Truth is on Harbinger server we have a lack of tanks going in the Queue for GF HM. The few still remaining in game when they do join me, the que pops instantly when we que up. INSTANTLY Fills 2 dps or dps and healer slots. So doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out with tank instant fill ins no tank and doesn't matter if healer or dps, your waiting hours Geeee, it looks like there is a shortage of tanks queing based on THE FACTS. Ending: The problem on my server is there is no tanks queing up for GF HM and players sit for hours and hours hoping for a pop. Now you can act all ignorant and almighty and blame DPSer if you want I've seen good and bad DPSers, just like I've seen good and bad healers and tanks No class has a better track record over the other on player behavior and misbehavior But no one also can fill in for the missing classes when one goes dry like tanks have on my server The game literally needs to do something to attract more tank spec players You shouldnt have people sitting for multiple hours every day hoping for que pops Bad groups will happen when you use GF shrug it off and try again Id dare say that most groups are good to great groups in GF Its maybe 10% of time you get a bad group so amazes me how much some people dwell on and focus on that 10% rather then seeing the benefit and good experience of the other 90% of time. The problem is the shortage of tanks A bad player can be taught to do better A non existant player will remain non existant If the issue was a teaching issue I could handle that ITS NOT PS: Ive never understood this btw Tank players really bad for this "I dont do Flashpoints because some players abuse me" Thats like saying "I dont swim because I once didnt know how to" If someone abuses you in a flashpoint, put them on ignore and you will never EVER be grouped again with them in a GF Flashpoint/OPS But for some reason many ion this thread seem to think if one person abusive, then its reasonable to punish the entire player base for it. Just ignore the abusers. Make their behavior have repercussions The more idiots you put on ignore The better your groups will become as you have weeded out many of the chronic problem players Dont punish the whole for the bad behavior of the few I am going to assume that you didn't read the replies you got and instead just read them as attacking you... NONE of us are arguing that there are not a lack of tanks in GF Hell Bioware has even admitted to it being why they (originally) wanted to do 16man operations in group finder. The issue is NOT that tanks are hard to play. I am sorry you thought it was hard but that is your problem and not the games. Not everyone is cut out to play a Tank or a Healer. The people that do know how to tank or heal have to deal with the large population of stupid DPS. Now I am not saying that all DPS were stupid, if they were all stupid we would never down any bosses in operations. I am also not saying that all Tanks or healers are good. I am saying that there comes a point that as a tank the last thing I want to do is run with a random group of morons and get a high repair bill. Tanks have one of if not the highest repair bills in the game. If I run a flashpoint (and I am not alone in this) as a tank I will not do group finder. Simple as that. I DO NOT WANT MY ENJOYMENT OF TANKING HINDERED BECAUSE YOU CAN'T PLAY THE CLASS Look at what WoW did by over simplifying the game to a point that a ********* monkey can play it.
My Referral Code

Daekarus

07.10.2014 , 02:40 PM \| #88	Quote
So we're agreed, the saying that "The biggest problem with multiplayer games is the players," is true. But since you can't change people, particularly not stupid people, we have to either put up with it or try something else.

DarthTHC

07.10.2014 , 02:52 PM \| #89	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by Daekarus So we're agreed, the saying that "The biggest problem with multiplayer games is the players," is true. But since you can't change people, particularly not stupid people, we have to either put up with it or try something else. I'm sitting here trying to imagine "something else", aside from players behaving civilly and playing competently, that would incentivise me to join a random group. Enough real life money would work. But I can't imagine any ingame reward that would, including cartel coins.

tharbison

07.10.2014 , 02:55 PM \| #90	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthTHC But I can't imagine any ingame reward that would, including cartel coins. Having your tank character immortalized with a shiny statue on Fleet in the new 'Hall of Champions'?!

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