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seeking advice to improve APM


Dras_Keto's Avatar


Dras_Keto
06.17.2014 , 07:20 AM | #11
Dont worry about APM. I dont get why people get so excited over having absurdly high actions per minute. This isnt Starcraft where you have to look like youre doing 6 or 7 things a second the entire time.

That being said, the GCD is 1.5 seconds. That means, coincidentally, that you should be at 40 "actions per minute," give or take. Some specs, like carnage, or anything with abilities that activate off the GCD should probably have more. Others, like say vengeance or advanced prototype, that rely on hard casting some 3 second ability as the vast majority of their dps, are going to have less.

As a TK sage, your abilities are either instant or have cast times equal to the GCD (when used appropriately, IE, not hard casting TKT or TKW) except for your versions of crushing darkness and thundering blast. Since youre going to be using those roughly 4 and 6 times each every minute, respectively, that will account for approx. 10 seconds of lost time per minute equaling about 6 GCDs that you just have to give up. Your version of Polarity Shift will alleviate this somewhat over the course of a fight, but youre looking at less than 40 either way.

So, Im gonna say that instead of trying to boost the number of things you do, work a bit more on figuring out where you should be doing something differently. Quality over quantity, always.

MusicRider's Avatar


MusicRider
06.17.2014 , 12:29 PM | #12
Thanks. Well the reason that I am looking into APM is because 3-4 attacks per minute count for a significant dps loss... looking in my parses my average damage per hit is about 2-2.1k, which means that 4 attacks more is 8k more damage per minute or an additional 133 dps... which is quite significant. Here are some parses with a 3/7/36 builds (some are with 3% crit and some with 2% alac + 1% crit).

Refreshing weaken mind in sync with every third turbulence:
http://www.torparse.com/a/699394/1/0/Damage+Dealt
http://www.torparse.com/a/699416/1/0/Damage+Dealt

Maintaining weaken mind as much as possible on target (still though 36 APM):
http://www.torparse.com/a/701136/66/0/Damage+Dealt

So it seems typically my dps is just under 3.1k, and my gear is nearly full oriconian with pvp brutalizer relics, blue nano stim, and reusable purple attack adrenal. It is far from bis I know that. Will try to add an AMR profile at some point but I assume it might be more appropriate to post in the sage/sorc subforums....

A lucky parse with 3.25k was (3% crit build):
http://www.torparse.com/a/699394/2/0/Damage+Dealt

However, in all of them my APM is 36... which if I could push it to 40 APM then based on my quick calculations above it could go on this gear at reliably between 3.2-3.3k, lucky would jump to just under 3.4k. That's I'm trying to see how can I increase my APM....

Mr_Fuzzle's Avatar


Mr_Fuzzle
06.17.2014 , 12:49 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by MusicRider View Post
Thanks. Well the reason that I am looking into APM is because 3-4 attacks per minute count for a significant dps loss... looking in my parses my average damage per hit is about 2-2.1k, which means that 4 attacks more is 8k more damage per minute or an additional 133 dps... which is quite significant. Here are some parses with a 3/7/36 builds (some are with 3% crit and some with 2% alac + 1% crit).

Refreshing weaken mind in sync with every third turbulence:
http://www.torparse.com/a/699394/1/0/Damage+Dealt
http://www.torparse.com/a/699416/1/0/Damage+Dealt

Maintaining weaken mind as much as possible on target (still though 36 APM):
http://www.torparse.com/a/701136/66/0/Damage+Dealt

So it seems typically my dps is just under 3.1k, and my gear is nearly full oriconian with pvp brutalizer relics, blue nano stim, and reusable purple attack adrenal. It is far from bis I know that. Will try to add an AMR profile at some point but I assume it might be more appropriate to post in the sage/sorc subforums....

A lucky parse with 3.25k was (3% crit build):
http://www.torparse.com/a/699394/2/0/Damage+Dealt

However, in all of them my APM is 36... which if I could push it to 40 APM then based on my quick calculations above it could go on this gear at reliably between 3.2-3.3k, lucky would jump to just under 3.4k. That's I'm trying to see how can I increase my APM....
So while this would have been better addressed in the actual class forums, you're not getting in nearly enough disturbances. Disturbance should be roughly 28-29% of your damage output.

Opener

MC > WM + Adrenal + MA > TB > DB > FP + TkT > TW > DB x4 > TB > DB > MC > TkT >TW > DB > mini rotation

Mini rotation
WM > TB > DB >High priority fillers > DB spam > TB > DB > high priority fillers > DB spam > repeat

Priorities
1. Weaken Mind before every third Turbulence
2. Turbulence
3. One Disturbance after every Turbulence
4. Mind Crush
5. Telekinetic Throw with Psychic Prjection
6. Telekinetic Wave with Tidal Force
7. Disturbance

Mind Crush can float a bit in the rotation, but don't delay a Turbulence or Weken Mind application to get it in there.

It looks like you only got two extra disturbances in between the first two Turbulences and only one in the following block. This means you're either waiting, not queuing up abilities or some combination of the two. When in doubt just spam Disturbance.

MusicRider's Avatar


MusicRider
06.18.2014 , 04:20 AM | #14
Hi thanks for the input and the time taken to look in one of my parses. Much appreciated.

Quote: Originally Posted by Mr_Fuzzle View Post
So while this would have been better addressed in the actual class forums,
I wanted to investigate firstly the general for all classes "rules" for APM before I move to class specific ones which I agree are better addressed in the class subforums.

Quote:
you're not getting in nearly enough disturbances. Disturbance should be roughly 28-29% of your damage output.
I think that 28-29% is kind of an outlier. If you look at these two parses with 28-29% you will see that dist has a whoopping 45+% crit on disturbance which is unusually high.
http://www.torparse.com/a/689890/1/0/Overview
http://www.torparse.com/a/692037/1/0/Overview

Another high parse with more down to earth dist crits is
http://www.torparse.com/a/661933/1/0/Damage+Dealt

And ofc, you have this which uses shock in the rotation hence having dist damage contribution at 18%.
http://www.torparse.com/a/682087/1/0/Damage+Dealt

So it is kind of difficult to look into damage dealt and the contribution of each ability particularly when there are surge talents. I knew that my dist was a very little bit low (something like 3-5 attacks more I should have so instead of 75 they should be 79 or smth), by looking in the number of turbulences (easy way to get an idea of normalised values) and disturbances.... and I suspect it is because sometimes out of habit I was casting mind crush during mental alacrity phase.

Quote:
Opener
MC > WM + Adrenal + MA > TB > DB > FP + TkT > TW > DB x4 > TB > DB > MC > TkT >TW > DB > mini rotation
My opener is pretty much that with one difference:
MC > WM + Adrenal + MA > TB > DB > FP + D -> TkT > TW > DB x4 > TB > DB > MC > TkT >TW > DB > mini rotation

Basically if you do that you can get 3 potencies from 2 charges. You can see in this parse of mine for example that after the first turbu that I have a tk-throw tick, then a dist hit, then the rest 3 ticks of tk-throw and a crit wave follows. This is not a lucky cause it happens pretty much all the time (within the limitations of potency as it is still not an auto-crit). Others also experience the same behaviour from what I have seen in the forums.

Quote:
Mini rotation
WM > TB > DB >High priority fillers > DB spam > TB > DB > high priority fillers > DB spam > repeat

Priorities
1. Weaken Mind before every third Turbulence
2. Turbulence
3. One Disturbance after every Turbulence
4. Mind Crush
5. Telekinetic Throw with Psychic Prjection
6. Telekinetic Wave with Tidal Force
7. Disturbance

Mind Crush can float a bit in the rotation, but don't delay a Turbulence or Weken Mind application to get it in there.
Yes pretty much what I am doing except if there is mental alacrity I try to avoid using mind crush during its duration. I also prefer refreshing weaken mind before third turbulence as it bring a nice sync to the weaken mind/turbulence/dist and the wave/psychic procs. Plus it is easier for raids if there is another dotter. However, it is a dps loss. There is more dps if weaken mind is maintained 100% on target with lower priority over turbulence, due to its 100% uptime and also getting psychic on its normal rate. However, everything is out of sync and extra caution must be taken with turbu either being delayed or missing an auto-crit which would nullify the dps gain from keeping wm 100% up.

Quote:
It looks like you only got two extra disturbances in between the first two Turbulences and only one in the following block. This means you're either waiting, not queuing up abilities or some combination of the two. When in doubt just spam Disturbance.
Not sure which parse you looked at... There is in every parse I think, 4 disturbances between the first two turbulences and 2 between second and third due to mind crush and applying weaken mind.

EDIT: typos

johnbgood's Avatar


johnbgood
06.18.2014 , 09:18 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by MusicRider View Post
...
Basically if you do that you can get 3 potencies from 2 charges. You can see in this parse of mine for example that after the first turbu that I have a tk-throw tick, then a dist hit, then the rest 3 ticks of tk-throw and a crit wave follows. This is not a lucky cause it happens pretty much all the time (within the limitations of potency as it is still not an auto-crit). Others also experience the same behaviour from what I have seen in the forums.
...
if this is true i would consider it as an exploit that needs to be fixed... i will test it later.

edit: it seems as long as the first TkT-tick hits before the disturbance, both attacks will crit because of force-potency but will just consume one stack of potency, as MusicRider said.

Mr_Fuzzle's Avatar


Mr_Fuzzle
06.18.2014 , 10:22 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by MusicRider View Post
Hi thanks for the input and the time taken to look in one of my parses. Much appreciated.


I wanted to investigate firstly the general for all classes "rules" for APM before I move to class specific ones which I agree are better addressed in the class subforums.


I think that 28-29% is kind of an outlier. If you look at these two parses with 28-29% you will see that dist has a whoopping 45+% crit on disturbance which is unusually high.
http://www.torparse.com/a/689890/1/0/Overview
http://www.torparse.com/a/692037/1/0/Overview

Another high parse with more down to earth dist crits is
http://www.torparse.com/a/661933/1/0/Damage+Dealt

And ofc, you have this which uses shock in the rotation hence having dist damage contribution at 18%.
http://www.torparse.com/a/682087/1/0/Damage+Dealt

So it is kind of difficult to look into damage dealt and the contribution of each ability particularly when there are surge talents. I knew that my dist was a very little bit low (something like 3-5 attacks more I should have so instead of 75 they should be 79 or smth), by looking in the number of turbulences (easy way to get an idea of normalised values) and disturbances.... and I suspect it is because sometimes out of habit I was casting mind crush during mental alacrity phase.


My opener is pretty much that with one difference:
MC > WM + Adrenal + MA > TB > DB > FP + D -> TkT > TW > DB x4 > TB > DB > MC > TkT >TW > DB > mini rotation

Basically if you do that you can get 3 potencies from 2 charges. You can see in this parse of mine for example that after the first turbu that I have a tk-throw tick, then a dist hit, then the rest 3 ticks of tk-throw and a crit wave follows. This is not a lucky cause it happens pretty much all the time (within the limitations of potency as it is still not an auto-crit). Others also experience the same behaviour from what I have seen in the forums.


Yes pretty much what I am doing except if there is mental alacrity I try to avoid using mind crush during its duration. I also prefer refreshing weaken mind before third turbulence as it bring a nice sync to the weaken mind/turbulence/dist and the wave/psychic procs. Plus it is easier for raids if there is another dotter. However, it is a dps loss. There is more dps if weaken mind is maintained 100% on target with lower priority over turbulence, due to its 100% uptime and also getting psychic on its normal rate. However, everything is out of sync and extra caution must be taken with turbu either being delayed or missing an auto-crit which would nullify the dps gain from keeping wm 100% up.


Not sure which parse you looked at... There is in every parse I think, 4 disturbances between the first two turbulences and 2 between second and third due to mind crush and applying weaken mind.

EDIT: typos
The 28% on Disturbance I pulled from a few of my more average parses. I prefer not to use record parses whether they be mine or the ones on the leader board for comparison purposes. Remember, the parses you looked at with lower Disturbance percentages had anomalous crits on other abilities, specifically TkT and TW, so that point is kind of moot. Also, that parse with Shock in it...just wow. He'd do much better using Lightning Strike.

Next up, for as long as your parse took, you should have used about 15 more Disturbances minimum, not just 3-5. Casting Mind Crush during Mental Alacrity is perfectly fine because it has a naturally high chance to proc Mental Momentum and for its cast time hits very hard. Ideally use it as the last attack affected by MA, but if not, it's not that big of a deal.

As far as the 3 charges of Force Potency, I'm well aware of this but have found it unreliable at best and best to ensure you use it on TkT and TW. If you're going to use it (and I do on occasion although I think getting the third crit is luck not a bug) you don't need to throw a second Disturbance in before the TkT > TW. You can just queue FP during the first Disturbance cast and go straight into TkT. What this does is helps get the hits from TkT and TW under your relic procs by not delaying.

Maintaining Weaken Mind at all times is actually a slight DPS loss. Think of it this way, by letting it fall off between Turbulences you are missing out on at most 2 ticks. Add up the average damage from those two (~1000 each) and get 2000 damage versus the average damage from Disturbance (~3000 or more) and you can see that the GCD you've used to maintain WM is better off spent on a Disturbance.

And I looked at a few of your parses. You were getting in at most 3 Disturbances in the opener apart from the required one immediately after Turbulence.

MusicRider's Avatar


MusicRider
06.18.2014 , 11:29 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Mr_Fuzzle View Post
Maintaining Weaken Mind at all times is actually a slight DPS loss. Think of it this way, by letting it fall off between Turbulences you are missing out on at most 2 ticks. Add up the average damage from those two (~1000 each) and get 2000 damage versus the average damage from Disturbance (~3000 or more) and you can see that the GCD you've used to maintain WM is better off spent on a Disturbance.
True. I was thinking more of that when syncing WM with TB the maximum number of potential psychics is not achieved. Still I prefer also to sync WM with every third TB.

Quote:
And I looked at a few of your parses. You were getting in at most 3 Disturbances in the opener apart from the required one immediately after Turbulence.
Hmm. You are right on this one, I didn't realise. On my calculations with gcds I should be fitting 5 DB as you describe between the first two TB, but I am only fitting four.... Seems like that is one of the main reasons that accounts for 1 APM less. Will need to parse again and see why this is happening.

MusicRider's Avatar


MusicRider
06.18.2014 , 11:29 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by johnbgood View Post
if this is true i would consider it as an exploit that needs to be fixed... i will test it later.

edit: it seems as long as the first TkT-tick hits before the disturbance, both attacks will crit because of force-potency but will just consume one stack of potency, as MusicRider said.
Yes .