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Operative / Scoundrel Top 3 Answers

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Scoundrel / Operative
Operative / Scoundrel Top 3 Answers
 
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diadox's Avatar


diadox
06.16.2014 , 10:44 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post

Feel free to post your ideas in this thread on how you would like to see the Lethality/Dirty Fighting skill tree improved in the future (for both PvP and PvE).
[pvp perspective] Lethality survivability can be decent at times, but it has some serious flaws:

- Too much survivability is on the gcd (roll + kolto infusion), making it so you lose way more output from trying to survive than most other specs in the game. You already said that you're considering making Unnatural Preservation for sorcs off gcd for this very reason, and the truth is even sorcs have a breeze compared to lethality operatives when it comes to spending gcds on survival. I'd say make the Quickening proc also make kolto infusion off gcd (at least when used on yourself if you're afraid of too good offhealing).

- Most survivability is heal based (shield probe and kolto infusion), and as such don't scale with how much damage you take. This results in lethality having passable sustained defense (albeit at the cost of a lot of gcds, as mentioned above) but horrible burst defense. Shield probe and infusion don't really need to change, but if you're adding defenses, make sure they are percentage based and not heal based.

- On the topic of burst survivability, 30% damage reduction while stunned would go a long way.


Quote: Originally Posted by Danylia View Post
- Toxic Regulators: Change the effect so that DoTs don't tick on targets affected by any sleep effects, not just your own.
[/I]
This would be a godsend in pvp as well, especially arenas.
Rhuarc


The Red Eclipse

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
06.16.2014 , 10:51 AM | #12
Re: the OPů Apparently the developers have changed their DPS balance philosophy. Again. I officially give up on trying to understand what they're doing in that department. To be clear, I'm specifically referring to the damage-vs-utility tradeoff that they seem to imply, which is a highly short-sighted design philosophy that misses the number one job of a DPS: doing damage.

Quote: Originally Posted by diadox View Post
- Too much survivability is on the gcd (roll + kolto infusion), making it so you lose way more output from trying to survive than most other specs in the game. You already said that you're considering making Unnatural Preservation for sorcs off gcd for this very reason, and the truth is even sorcs have a breeze compared to lethality operatives when it comes to spending gcds on survival. I'd say make the Quickening proc also make kolto infusion off gcd (at least when used on yourself if you're afraid of too good offhealing).
Shield Probe says "hello". Off the GCD already, more healing than Unnatural Preservation (for a DPS sorc), and half the cooldown (for Lethality).

Quote: Originally Posted by diadox View Post
- Most survivability is heal based (shield probe and kolto infusion), and as such don't scale with how much damage you take. This results in lethality having passable sustained defense (albeit at the cost of a lot of gcds, as mentioned above) but horrible burst defense. Shield probe and infusion don't really need to change, but if you're adding defenses, make sure they are percentage based and not heal based.
Actually, Lethality has fantastic sustained defense, it just requires a lot of micro-management to get the most out of it. Relative to the sustained DPS levels in PvP (i.e. very low), Shield Probe is straight-up OP. You're absolutely right though that burst defense is where Lethality is lacking. Evasion helps, but only against certain classes (basically just Ataru sentinels and DoT sages). Hopefully they still plan to rectify this situation.
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Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
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snave's Avatar


snave
06.16.2014 , 10:59 AM | #13
Looks like my "joke" answers were pretty close to the mark after all

Quote: Originally Posted by snave View Post
I fully expect the answers to be as follows:

1 PvE: We listened to all you guys and we've decided to buff your survivibility! We feel these changes will be enough to get you in to a raid spot so we wont be looking to add anything else in the foreseeable future but don't worry! We pay close attention to all over our metrics and we'll do everything we can to balance the classes.

2 PvP: We believe that operatives are viable in ranked arena, in fact they make up a large number of the top players in the world. With these new changes other specs will become more prevalent and you can look forward to more exciting pvp content in 2019. We don't want to commit to any promises because we want to see how these changes play out first of all but don't worry! We pay close attention to all over our metrics and we'll do everything we can to balance the classes.

3 Wildcard: We're constantly working on bug fixes and we'll be sure to look in to these particular ones you mentioned. Set bonuses are only there to give flavour to a class rather than provide a substantial benefit but don't worry! We pay close attention to all over our metrics and we'll do everything we can to balance the classes.

Uber_the_Goober's Avatar


Uber_the_Goober
06.16.2014 , 11:27 AM | #14
I see nothing here to renew my interest in the class. Bummer. I'll run it as heal spec when I feel like it, but DPS...nah. Just not fun enough anymore.
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Adovir's Avatar


Adovir
06.16.2014 , 11:34 AM | #15
To KBN

Roll is a great ability, i think we can all agree on that one of the main problems i have with it is that it is on the same GCD as all of our damaging/heal abilities. This means that you need to use 2 GCDs in lethality to get the relatively low heal off and then you can start fighting back. Shield probe is a roughly 4.2k shield is lethality while using the healer 2 set bonus and roughly 3200 in concealment with the healer 2set and with the low CD on it, it is an Ok skill, but to be fair unnatural preservation has the ability to crit as well and ive seen crits for over 7k with no relics active in conq gear. With it now being off the GCD i would say that it is a superior ability to shield probe because of that fact because you can now couple it with static barrier which blocks for more damage than SP and has a very similar lock out. I would personally love for roll to be on its own GCD such as acid blade so you can do something like roll to stealth with out having to wait the GCD for it. I agree with you with not knowing what theyre doing with to balance utility and damage, i would give up abit of sustained(100 or so points) for better utility or survivability because as i have said in other posts and such that we can only 1v1 most classes every 2 minuets and if there is a second person there it is a total loss, unless you out play them so terribly.
Bads will be bads and i will shepherd them to their deaths

PBoba's Avatar


PBoba
06.16.2014 , 11:45 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by snave View Post
Looks like my "joke" answers were pretty close to the mark after all
That's what I thought as I read them.

diadox's Avatar


diadox
06.16.2014 , 11:48 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post

Shield Probe says "hello". Off the GCD already, more healing than Unnatural Preservation (for a DPS sorc), and half the cooldown (for Lethality).
Sure, but now you're comparing ability versus ability when you should be comparing the whole toolsets of the classes (or at least specs) against each other. Just add in Force Speed versus roll and things are already skewed in favour of sorcs. In my experience (which admittedly is limited to yolo on both scoundrel/operative and sage, as I have only played team on other classes) both classes have ways to deal with focus, but my sage loses far, far less output from it. In fact, it is probably best for your team if a properly played balance sage is the one to be focused, because it loses very little from being focused compared to every ranged and most melee specs in the game (before the patch anyway; it might be different now that more emphasis is added to TKT - I haven't been able to play since it went live). Telekinetics is another story, but the reason it loses output from being focused is in very little part because of gcd demanding defenses.

Quote:
Actually, Lethality has fantastic sustained defense, it just requires a lot of micro-management to get the most out of it. Relative to the sustained DPS levels in PvP (i.e. very low), Shield Probe is straight-up OP. You're absolutely right though that burst defense is where Lethality is lacking. Evasion helps, but only against certain classes (basically just Ataru sentinels and DoT sages). Hopefully they still plan to rectify this situation.
That "fantastic" sustain is dependent on just how much output the other team puts out, and how the damage is spread. Against proper hard swapping sustained survivability means close to nothing compared to burst defense. Against any properly executed strategy that involves a semblance of focus - no matter how simple - sustained survivability is just unused potential. Heal based defenses on short cooldown relies too much on them always being used on cooldown to full effect. If those terms are not met, the "fantastic" part of "fantastic sustained" falls apart. As far as pvp goes, sustain only shines against a pressure comp or bad opposition.
Rhuarc


The Red Eclipse

Adovir's Avatar


Adovir
06.16.2014 , 11:49 AM | #18
some ideas for survivability though debuffs and such from another thread(not all my ideas)

1) I would love to have the devs give an opinion on the possibility of either an 20-40% alacrity debuff or some sort of healing debuff to our target on hidden strike / back stab / acid blade. (alac debuff means we get our hits off faster than opponents if coupled with stim boost it would make a significant difference. Alternatively you could make the jarring strikes ability give an accuracy debuff for X amount of seconds)

2) I would like an indication from them if they feel healing / cross-healing in pvp is working as intended, or if they are looking into a way of toning down the ability of 2-3 healers to heal indefinitely without having energy issues. Especially operative healers.(giving us survivablity though healing would be nice but hard to balance i assume, not making the heal too strong or too weak so on and so forth)

3) I would like the devs to consider making BOTH infiltrate and especially counter measures useful in pvp - I suggest perhaps counter measures causes all players to instantly loose target on the operative (interrupting any ability being cast on them - although they can be re-targeted again afterwards) (i would like to extrapolate on this idea for lethality in particular, making it so that counter measures would force the target that we are targeted on to untarget us would be a nice little interupt to the fight for the enemy and would allow us to be "slippery" and giving us an upper hand in fights at times if used correctly. possibly bound to counter strike/dirt trickster)

(for the use of inflitrate/smuggle it would be nice if on the escape plan/smuggled defense talent to make it useable out of stealth and give it either a debuff to all enemies in the radius or a buff to all allies inside of it to increase something such as defense chance.)

4) If Devs want us to be "slippery" a possibility of a 20% reduction to stun duration on concealment operatives (either countermeasures cooldown [usable while stunned] or inherent high in the concealment tree), or the ability to use cloak screen while stunned and making it cleanse all roots, or even shield probe while stunned.(class homogeneity here but yeah)

5) Increasing the accuracy debuff on flash powder to 30%

6)Swap the alacrity buff in lethality for the damage reduction buff in healer tier 2(both 2 point talents and would benifit all specs)

7) revitalizers now heals 10% up front and gives a 2/3% heal every second for 15 seconds

8) make counter measure/surrender shorten the duration of stuns by 50%(possibly bound to counterstrike/ dirty trickster)
Bads will be bads and i will shepherd them to their deaths

MasterFeign's Avatar


MasterFeign
06.16.2014 , 11:54 AM | #19
I kind of wish they'd tone down "evasive imperative" in the medicine tree. Essentially if the operative is constantly being attacked, they'd have evasion on CD every 22.5 seconds.

As on the other hand, darkness assassins, while having a similar ability, don't benefit as much from it.

I also think "durable meds" is making it too easy for healing ops as well. Back before the "surgical precision" nerf, I had suggested that they get rid of reducing the cost of "kolto probes" from "durable meds". That way their energy management would be smarter, instead of people just spamming "kolto probes" without consequence.

GrandLordMenace's Avatar


GrandLordMenace
06.16.2014 , 12:15 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Re: the OPů Apparently the developers have changed their DPS balance philosophy. Again. I officially give up on trying to understand what they're doing in that department. To be clear, I'm specifically referring to the damage-vs-utility tradeoff that they seem to imply, which is a highly short-sighted design philosophy that misses the number one job of a DPS: doing damage.



Shield Probe says "hello". Off the GCD already, more healing than Unnatural Preservation (for a DPS sorc), and half the cooldown (for Lethality).



Actually, Lethality has fantastic sustained defense, it just requires a lot of micro-management to get the most out of it. Relative to the sustained DPS levels in PvP (i.e. very low), Shield Probe is straight-up OP. You're absolutely right though that burst defense is where Lethality is lacking. Evasion helps, but only against certain classes (basically just Ataru sentinels and DoT sages). Hopefully they still plan to rectify this situation.
I now have a very long list of classes that require rebalancing due to the philosophy change.

What will it be bioware? You make your move.

As for survivability, what if they just flipflopped from defending melee/ranged attacks into defending against Force and Tech? It still allows for counterplay, just makes it way more useful...

Or allow it to defend against Ranged and Tech but not Force and Melee? Just trying to work something out that allows for counterplay?
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