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Operative / Scoundrel Top 3 Answers

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Scoundrel / Operative
Operative / Scoundrel Top 3 Answers
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EricMusco's Avatar


EricMusco
06.16.2014 , 08:38 AM | #1 This is the last staff post in this thread.  
Hey folks,

Below you will find your top 3 returned, with answers. Thanks!

-eric


----------------------

1: PVE

Based on the proposed 2.8 PTS changes it looks like you're taking a step in the right direction to fixing Concealment's poor survivability. Could you please let us know the reason behind the changes you've made and what other tweaks you have planned to help bring DPS based operatives in line with regards to raid utility as we are currently lacking in that department?

Lethality received no changes, could you please also explain your reasoning behind that too?
In the 2.8 update, we changed Jarring Strike/K.O. to give back the interrupt that Concealment/Scrapper Operatives/Scoundrels lost when we changed Jarring Strike/K.O from a knock down effect into an immobilize effect, because the loss of the inherent interrupt (as part of the knock down) was an unintended consequence of the original change. We have also added some protection against area of effect attacks to Shadow Operative Elite/Slippery Devil, because many players had complained that Operatives/Scoundrels had no way to reduce the damage taken from area of effect attacks (like many other short-range classes can). And finally, we added some more survivability to Revitalizers/Surprise Comeback, because many players felt that the skill was simply not worth taking.

We feel that Operatives/Scoundrels are currently in a pretty good place for endgame PvE content, as their raw healing and damage output is higher than that of many other classes – so currently, the idea is that what Operatives/Scoundrels may lack in group utility, they make up for in their raw ability to heal or deal damage. In a distant future update, we will be adding some group utility for Operatives/Scoundrels in exchange for some of that raw healing and damage, but we are not yet ready to discuss the details of these changes.

There is no specific reasoning for Lethality/Dirty Fighting not receiving any changes in the 2.8 update – unfortunately we have a limited amount of time and resources to make and test changes with each update. Therefore, only so many classes and specializations can get changes with each update (we do as many as we possibly can). It should be noted however that Lethality is very near the top of our list to receive changes in 2.9.
2: PVP

DPS operatives have been excluded from ranked PvP since its creation due to poor class balancing, it's great you've noticed this and put forward changes for Concealment on the PTS. Can you please let us know why you feel the upcoming changes are sufficient and what you will do if Concealment continues to be "non viable" for ranked play.

I feel obliged to point out again that Lethality has received no changes and will remain on the sidelines.
We are committed to evaluating and improving all of the classes and specializations that do not perform well in PvP. Ideally, we would like for every specialization to be viable in PvP, but realistically, one of those specializations for each advanced class will always be regarded as the “best” choice for a given activity (such as leveling up, endgame PvE, or PvP) in the game by players. For example, many current Operative/Scoundrel players might tell you that the best choice you can make in PvP as an Operative/Scoundrel is to be a healer, and our internal data would also back-up such a claim.

We are not yet certain that the improvements we have made for damage-dealing Operatives/Scoundrels will be enough, but we will continue to monitor their performance in PvP and continue to improve them, if necessary.

Again, we have not improved Lethality/Dirty Fighting in the 2.8 update due to time constraints, not because we believe the specialization is perfect as it is. Feel free to post your ideas in this thread on how you would like to see the Lethality/Dirty Fighting skill tree improved in the future (for both PvP and PvE).
3: Wildcard - Quality of life:

There have been several changes to Operatives recently that have seriously diminished the quality of life of the class in addition to quite a lot of pre-existing problems. Here is a reduced list containing some of the more pressing points:
  • The removal of crouch preventing leaps / pulls effecting DPS specs more harshly than Medicine (its intended target)
  • Leaving combat seems to be on an almost random timer making restealthing very difficult
  • This was also asked previously but seemingly ignored. Our set bonuses are virtually useless. You stated that set bonuses were only meant to provide a small damage increase but our set bonuses do not even provide this and pale when compared to any other class..
  • The "roll bug" that freezes us in place when knocked back during a roll is still in the game.
  • Revitalizers is currently bugged and only ticks 4 times for a total 16% heal (tooltip says 20%)

Can you please let us know what you will be doing over the next few patches in order to increase our poor quality of life with in the game?

We'd also love it if you could give us the Hidden Strike knock down animation on weak PvE mobs.
  • The cover defenses will not be making their way back to Operatives/Scoundrels any time soon, because cover does not encourage the envisioned style of play for Operatives/Scoundrels.
  • Reliably leaving combat after a precise amount of time is a problem that has plagued stealth classes for a while now, but hopefully we can fix the issue or find a much more reliable way of dropping combat in PvP.
  • It is unlikely that Operative/Scoundrel set bonuses will be improved any time soon because Operative/Scoundrel damage and healing output is already quite high, and improving the set bonuses would only put them even further ahead of the other damage dealers and healers in the game.
  • We are still looking into addressing the "roll-freeze" bug.
  • The issue with the last healing tick for Revitalizers/Surprise Comeback not occurring should be resolved as of Game Update 2.8.
  • We can probably return the Hidden Strike/Shoot First knock down animation for weak and standard enemies in PvE.

We have some pretty big changes planned for Operatives/Scoundrels in the more distant future, but we cannot discuss the details at this time. For the near future, we will be monitoring Operative/Scoundrel performance in PvE and PvP and making any needed improvements as we can.
Eric Musco | Community Manager
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Adovir's Avatar


Adovir
06.16.2014 , 08:44 AM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Hey folks,

Below you will find your top 3 returned, with answers. Thanks!

-eric


----------------------

1: PVE
1). And finally, we added some more survivability to Revitalizers/Surprise Comeback, because many players felt that the skill was simply not worth taking.

2). We feel that Operatives/Scoundrels are currently in a pretty good place for endgame PvE content, as their raw healing and damage output is higher than that of many other classes – so currently, the idea is that what Operatives/Scoundrels may lack in group utility, they make up for in their raw ability to heal or deal damage. In a distant future update, we will be adding some group utility for Operatives/Scoundrels in exchange for some of that raw healing and damage, but we are not yet ready to discuss the details of these changes.
2: PVP
[INDENT]
3). We are committed to evaluating and improving all of the classes and specializations that do not perform well in PvP. Ideally, we would like for every specialization to be viable in PvP, but realistically, one of those specializations for each advanced class will always be regarded as the “best” choice for a given activity (such as leveling up, endgame PvE, or PvP) in the game by players. For example, many current Operative/Scoundrel players might tell you that the best choice you can make in PvP as an Operative/Scoundrel is to be a healer, and our internal data would also back-up such a claim.

4). We are not yet certain that the improvements we have made for damage-dealing Operatives/Scoundrels will be enough, but we will continue to monitor their performance in PvP and continue to improve them, if necessary.

3: Wildcard - Quality of life:
  • 5). The cover defenses will not be making their way back to Operatives/Scoundrels any time soon, because cover does not encourage the envisioned style of play for Operatives/Scoundrels.
  • Reliably leaving combat after a precise amount of time is a problem that has plagued stealth classes for a while now, but hopefully we can fix the issue or find a much more reliable way of dropping combat in PvP.
  • It is unlikely that Operative/Scoundrel set bonuses will be improved any time soon because Operative/Scoundrel damage and healing output is already quite high, and improving the set bonuses would only put them even further ahead of the other damage dealers and healers in the game.
  • We are still looking into addressing the "roll-freeze" bug.
  • The issue with the last healing tick for Revitalizers/Surprise Comeback not occurring should be resolved as of Game Update 2.8.
  • We can probably return the Hidden Strike/Shoot First knock down animation for weak and standard enemies in PvE.


We have some pretty big changes planned for Operatives/Scoundrels in the more distant future, but we cannot discuss the details at this time. For the near future, we will be monitoring Operative/Scoundrel performance in PvE and PvP and making any needed improvements as we can.

1). Many people do not take the revitalizer talent because of the change it had received in 2.0. This is because pre2.0 it was more of a passive talent, with its long duration, decently short cool down and easy use our rotation for PVE and PVP to get some more energy and a decent amount of life back over the time. Post 2.0 stim boost its self has been turned into a semi offensive CD with its granting of a TA and is much less effective in regenerating energy. Now with the damage reduction added it is supposed to be a DCD in concealment/scrapper but it also has the offensive capability of granting TA so players will no longer use it while in stealth because it wastes a few precious seconds to the damage reduct and we lose 1-2 ticks of healing(8% in pve 6% in pvp). Further still it adds very little survivability to the class, only while coupling it with a warzone adrenal does it become very effective and this makes it so that we are viable for 1V1 every 2 minuets or so and while either warzone adrenal or stim boost are on cool down the 1v1 capability of an operative is very very very low in most cases, so inherently our capability to survive anything more than 2 players is completely non existent

2). You have said to many classes that "raw damage" should not effect group utility and that all classes should bring some sort of utility to the group. Here you have contradicted yourself by saying In a distant future update, we will be adding some group utility for Operatives/Scoundrels in exchange for some of that raw healing and damage. So for every other class group utility can be given while not effecting their total damage or healing but for the operative, a class that does not have the highest damage capabilities nor total healing, although our healing is very "easy" compared to the others and is more than viable, have to give up some of our damage and healing to get utility? This feels like a very unfair double standard to me and even if you did not mean it in this way or if you misworded yourself you have to some what admit that it does seem unfair to say such a thing, while you buffed other classes damage that were fairly strong as is for PVP and PVE who had good utility with no penalty you see a need for us to be penalized, is our damage and or healing that good that you see it worth toning down abit to give us utility? Also ill accept that Lethality got nothing this patch one at a time so ill give you a mulligan on that i guess.

3). All the healers and all the tanks are viable for ranked play, juggernauts and power techs over assassins and mercs and Ops over sorcs, but all are viable and it all comes down to personal preference and group make up. With that said no class should be told that because their tank/healer is the "premiere" tank/healer they should play tank/heals instead of DPS. This doesnt make sense, for while they all may be viable some players hate the idea of healing and some hate the idea of tanking, a pretty well known theory of why the operative and scoundrel community died out was because the fact that our DPS were no longer viable and only our healers were and many did not want to play a healer but a dps instead.

4). as i stated in 1 it is not enough, the sole reason is because we must couple it with our warzone adrenal to get 35% reduction for the duration to be able to fight players 1v1 in an arena we are often targeted after we leave stealth because of the lack of defensive skills other than combat stealth.

5). It saddens me to see that you refuse to do anything about our very lack luster set bonuses. Smuggle/infiltrate has been a useless skill for so long when i created my scoundrel i didnt even bother to buy the skill because i know of very few situations in which it is ever useful, it often causes more problems skipping mobs than it does helping. The extra second on Evasion/dodge is not very helpful because the majority of damage in a warzone is F&T damage and as a purge it mostly effective but has its flaws because DoTs can be applied during the duration of the skill so many times we get knocked out of stealth because of that. Lastly the 5 energy is quite pathetic and does very little for our over all damage/resource management. The 4 set bonus could be changed to give us the defense which we so greatly desire while affecting PVE and PVP differently and will not unbalance either all that is required is that you make it so that the healer set bonus has something that the healers need/want. If we are not supposed to use cover then may we have abilities which are bound to cover(namely explosive probe) unbound through preparedness so we may use them while standing? this would add more fluidity to our rotation and make for a few less mishaps that happen if you press the button you have bound for explosive probe just before the tool bar has changed. Lastly please fix the roll freeze bug it hasnt happened to me in like 3 weeks but it is frusterating losing out on a warzone because of a stupid bug.

Ill admit i am a bit frustrated with the responses we got with the considering that the questions were taken late and given back to us late because Musco was out of town, making what is supposed to be a 1 week process almost 3 weeks(2weeks 6 days) and us being left out of the loop because of poor communication. thats my 2 cents on the matter, Musco i personally would like some acknowledgement to how long it took you to give us these responses back and try to communicate with the community better but that is just me and is not a requirement just my own little request that would make all communities happier.
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Thubb's Avatar


Thubb
06.16.2014 , 09:05 AM | #3
Honestly at this point in time i have just lost all hope of ever having a viable dps scoundrel/Operative in pvp ever again.

Quote:
We have some pretty big changes planned for Operatives/Scoundrels in the more distant future, but we cannot discuss the details at this time
We have heard it all before. We have been blueballed since 1.4 and have been told changes will come, but all we get is changes that is always minor and poorly executed . The changes done in 2.8 changes NOTHING in terms of pvp viability , and if you had opened our thread on PTS you would have known this.

I cannot really answer the pve part of the answer , since i rarely raid anymore. The 30% aoe damage reduction is obviously a very nice buff , but iam not sure about revitalisers(The talent in itself is very weak). Pve dps scoundrels have atleast an easier time in regards to moving points around in the tree , seeing as they dont need root from hidden strike or the root from sever tendon.

Woodynz's Avatar


Woodynz
06.16.2014 , 09:12 AM | #4
I so hate to double up on questions but here goes

Minor side note, you may wish to give the teams a heads up there is an issue with the Acid Blade 30% Armor pen buff.

Acid Blade = 15 sec duration (*Applied via Backstab + Hidden Strike etc.)
Backstab = 12 sec CD.

This allows a 3 second window to ensure Operatives can maintain 100% uptime.

The glitch is that even using the 3 second window for reapplication, your follow up Backstab although it reapplies the Acid Blade armor penetration buff clipping/resetting the already existing Acid Blade buff; Does not actually make use of the already existing armor pen buff and mine Drops in ~4k damage everytime this happens.

EG of rotation and effect: *Stealth - Hidden Strike - Buff Applied *(Rotation)* Acid Blade - Backstab (Because of hidden Strike application buff used = 7kish backstab) *(Rotation)* Acid Blade - Backstab *Maintaining 100% uptime of Acidblade) = reapplication of Acid Blade Clipping previous buff ~1-2 seconds = 2.3kish Backstab

With 100% uptime 2.3k'ish Backstabs should not be happening, same with the dps losses on Shiv + Laceration; these numbers end up being lower then the tooltip for each ability.

http://www.fryingtime.com/?filename=...3_06_35_699000

Small Fryingtime log provided to help , I understand you folks may not use Fryingtime, but it is a lot more user friendly then other logs available.

Danylia's Avatar


Danylia
06.16.2014 , 09:29 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Feel free to post your ideas in this thread on how you would like to see the Lethality/Dirty Fighting skill tree improved in the future (for both PvP and PvE).
I will take this opportunity; my suggestions will be made from a PVE standpoint, since I don't PVP at all.

- Fatality: Change the trigger chance from 20/40/60% to 33/67/100%

- Toxic Regulators: Change the effect so that DoTs don't tick on targets affected by any sleep effects, not just your own.

- License to Kill: Expand the talent, adding the following: Sever Tendon has 50/100% chance to generate TA
Quote: Originally Posted by Rafkin View Post
Last nights group finder was a mess. The short version is that two of the people were really bad but the tank was pretty good. After we called it I asked the tank if he wanted to queue up with me. He said "I'm eleven and I have to go to bed".
The one guy who knew what he was doing was eleven years old.

Thubb's Avatar


Thubb
06.16.2014 , 09:33 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Danylia View Post
I will take this opportunity; my suggestions will be made from a PVE standpoint, since I don't PVP at all.

- Fatality: Change the trigger chance from 20/40/60% to 33/67/100%

- Toxic Regulators: Change the effect so that DoTs don't tick on targets affected by any sleep effects, not just your own.

- License to Kill: Expand the talent, adding the following: Sever Tendon has 50/100% chance to generate TA
Good ideas

Bstr's Avatar


Bstr
06.16.2014 , 10:05 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Adovir View Post
a class that does not have the highest damage capabilities
Really? Take a look at Torparse: 4 out of the 8 top parses on a dummy come from Ops / Scoundrels. (And most of the others are Gunslinges / Snipers using Scatter Bombs, which need to be nerfed.)

Scoundrels / Ops can do high amounts of burst and sustained damage if they survive.

Survivability issues aside, if Scoundrels / Ops were given more group utility for PvE, most Ops groups would choose only them. Who would you rather choose: a class with high DPS and average utility (what you are asking Ops to be) or one with average DPS and average utility (most other classes?)

(Note: Scoundrels / Ops do need some buffs for survivability still. I haven't played with the 2.8 survivability buffs though to see if they are enough for the middle tree.)
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AlrikFassbauer's Avatar


AlrikFassbauer
06.16.2014 , 10:34 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Adovir View Post
3). All the healers and all the tanks are viable for ranked play, juggernauts and power techs over assassins and mercs and Ops over sorcs, but all are viable and it all comes down to personal preference and group make up.
Some Sage Healer players would doubt that. Especioally when it comes down to an Arena.

I admnit, though, that more hardoce PvP players do not believe Gunslingers to be viable for Ranked PvP, either (my main char is an Gunslinger, and I have read enough times that they do not want the Gunslinger class in Ranked Arena).
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AlrikFassbauer's Avatar


AlrikFassbauer
06.16.2014 , 10:37 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Bstr View Post
Survivability issues aside, if Scoundrels / Ops were given more group utility for PvE, most Ops groups would choose only them. Who would you rather choose: a class with high DPS and average utility (what you are asking Ops to be) or one with average DPS and average utility (most other classes?)
I agree to that. Most OPs I'm participating with my Gunslinger have *several* Gunslingers or Scoundrels - but on the other hand almost *never* any damage-oriented Sage ...

The devs seem to think into an similar direction (bold printing by me) :

Quote:
It is unlikely that Operative/Scoundrel set bonuses will be improved any time soon because Operative/Scoundrel damage and healing output is already quite high, and improving the set bonuses would only put them even further ahead of the other damage dealers and healers in the game.
Quote:
In a distant future update, we will be adding some group utility for Operatives/Scoundrels in exchange for some of that raw healing and damage,
<S-key to victory> Because quad wheel is always better than dual wheel.

dinwitt's Avatar


dinwitt
06.16.2014 , 10:42 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
so currently, the idea is that what Operatives/Scoundrels may lack in group utility, they make up for in their raw ability to heal or deal damage. In a distant future update, we will be adding some group utility for Operatives/Scoundrels in exchange for some of that raw healing and damage, but we are not yet ready to discuss the details of these changes.
Hey look at that. Confirmation that you are now nerfing dps because of utility. You hardly need to answer the sniper questions now since it'll just be variations on this theme for each. I'm sure others that are significantly more eloquent than I am will go into great detail about why this is a terrible idea. In the meanwhile I've got some silver medals to earn in veteran dungeons over in Wildstar.