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The REAL Most Powerful Revisited

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
The REAL Most Powerful Revisited

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
06.02.2014 , 10:32 AM | #731
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker View Post
This is true about both Traya and Saba, If you go onto read, I feel Senses are either a sign of great connection to the living OR the cosmic force depending on the type of power.

Traya is an example of one who has amazing Connection to the Cosmic Force, Saba on the other hand is one who shows great connection to the Living Force.

While they may have better knowledge and connection better then Yoda or Luke in their respective Fields...... they are amazingly out classed in the other, which is what allows Luke and Yoda to do other greater displays.

Saba doesnt beat Luke by all that much in terms of Life senses or "understanding of the living Force" but Luke beats her by miles in the understanding of the Cosmic Force.

If you are getting my drift.

Just wanting to get things as less obscure as possible if you know what I mean a more focused concentration of stuff and to me with the Force knowledge is power, but at the same time we need to understand knowledge of one aspect doesnt mean knowledge of all aspects.

Some one can be weaker and still have that 1 aspect of the Force they outclass even the greatest of Force Wielders, but are still weaker because while that 1 aspect puts them above thanks to their understanding and knowledge of that aspect the broader knowledge of the masters means a greaters overall understanding allowing them to pull on multiple aspects simultaneously.
I see what your saying here, But I think the Cosmic Force is more of a niche if you will, whereas the Living Force makes up the majority of Force powers. To me the Cosmic Force is about listening to the will and the way of the Force, to its movements, and in doing so you gain insight into the past, future, and people themselves because the Force both transcends and binds all these things. Its like your patching yourself in to the ebb and flow of the very universe.

But that doesn't require a great deal of power, just an ability to listen and center oneself. Not that an ability to center oneself, and become attuned to the Force, does not indicate great power i.e. a connection to the Force.

The Living Force on the other hand is the mortal plane, its everything around us. Using the Living Force isn't the same as using the Cosmic Force, its not about tapping into a certain wavelength and listening, its about reaching out and affecting your surroundings, reaching out and manipulating it to your will, which requires strength above all else.

This is why I feel folks like Qui-Gon used Force Powers sparingly and respectively.

So yes, in that sense power comes before knowledge. Knowledge helps and is necessary, but ultimately you don't need much knowledge to see and understand what is around you, and exert yourself on it. Especially if that power comes from within itself, a subject to which you should be intimately aware. It doesn't transcend our understanding.

So altogether I'd say the Cosmic Force puts on emphasis on knowledge over power, and the Living Force places an emphasis on power over knowledge. Though the later I feel does fluctuate in regards to my jam jar analogy.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
06.02.2014 , 10:50 AM | #732
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I see what your saying here, But I think the Cosmic Force is more of a niche if you will, whereas the Living Force makes up the majority of Force powers. To me the Cosmic Force is about listening to the will and the way of the Force, to its movements, and in doing so you gain insight into the past, future, and people themselves because the Force both transcends and binds all these things. Its like your patching yourself in to the ebb and flow of the very universe.

But that doesn't require a great deal of power, just an ability to listen and center oneself. Not that an ability to center oneself, and become attuned to the Force, does not indicate great power i.e. a connection to the Force.

The Living Force on the other hand is the mortal plane, its everything around us. Using the Living Force isn't the same as using the Cosmic Force, its not about tapping into a certain wavelength and listening, its about reaching out and affecting your surroundings, reaching out and manipulating it to your will, which requires strength above all else.

This is why I feel folks like Qui-Gon used Force Powers sparingly and respectively.

So yes, in that sense power comes before knowledge. Knowledge helps and is necessary, but ultimately you don't need much knowledge to see and understand what is around you, and exert yourself on it. Especially if that power comes from within itself, a subject to which you should be intimately aware. It doesn't transcend our understanding.

So altogether I'd say the Cosmic Force puts on emphasis on knowledge over power, and the Living Force places an emphasis on power over knowledge. Though the later I feel does fluctuate in regards to my jam jar analogy.
I think Both Fluctuate to a degree honestly, but I still dont know if enough credit is given to knowledge and understanding as BEING power, I am cautious if you know what I mean about labeling powers "power based" vs "Knowledge/ understanding Based" as like I said every power is in some way knowledge based.


To go with the Jam analogy..... both opened the Jar does it REALLY matter how it was achieved? They both had the same affect just different means to getting there.

Its like a Force Sensitive with a lot of Raw Potential doing the same thing as a Force sensitive who has had a lot of training and is now closer to their max. They both have the same ACHIEVED power, but 1 is just closer to their top out, while the other once they get that knowledge and understanding will surpass the one with out that same Raw potential.....but they havent surpassed them YET because the gap in knoweldge and understanding is making up for that Raw power/ Strength of connection to the Force. As we have said, this thread isnt about who has the highest POTENTIAL or greatest Raw Power/ connection to the force, its about the achieved power and all achieved power is in some way linked to knowledge and understanding of the Force as ALL achieved power is based on Knowledge and understanding + Connection.


Edit: Just to be sure I am understood the reason I say Knowledge AND understanding, is they are both different. You can have knowledge with out understanding, though I dont think you have understanding with out knowledge.

A Prime example was Luke on Dathomir, he had a good amount of knowledge about the Force, but his understanding VASTLY grew upon his near death experience and visibly seeing the Living Force. It was the difference between knowing the words.... and fully understanding their meaning.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
06.02.2014 , 11:01 AM | #733
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker View Post
I think Both Fluctuate to a degree honestly, but I still dont know if enough credit is given to knowledge and understanding as BEING power, I am cautious if you know what I mean about labeling powers "power based" vs "Knowledge/ understanding Based" as like I said every power is in some way knowledge based.


To go with the Jam analogy..... both opened the Jar does it REALLY matter how it was achieved? They both had the same affect just different means to getting there.

Its like a Force Sensitive with a lot of Raw Potential doing the same thing as a Force sensitive who has had a lot of training and is now closer to their max. They both have the same ACHIEVED power, but 1 is just closer to their top out, while the other once they get that knowledge and understanding will surpass the one with out that same Raw potential.....but they havent surpassed them YET because the gap in knoweldge and understanding is making up for that Raw power/ Strength of connection to the Force. As we have said, this thread isnt about who has the highest POTENTIAL or greatest Raw Power/ connection to the force, its about the achieved power and all achieved power is in some way linked to knowledge and understanding of the Force as ALL achieved power is based on Knowledge and understanding + Connection.
Because we are measuring power here, in that case lets say we are measuring strength. The person who opened it by running it under hot water has not proven that they are stronger than the person who just ripped it open.

In terms of strength, the later is more impressive.

But again I'm not denying that in many instances knowledge and understanding are gateways to power. They are, but they can also in many cases be means of bypassing power.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
06.02.2014 , 11:04 AM | #734
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Because we are measuring power here, in that case lets say we are measuring strength. The person who opened it by running it under hot water has not proven that they are stronger than the person who just ripped it open.

In terms of strength, the later is more impressive.

But again I'm not denying that in many instances knowledge and understanding are gateways to power. They are, but they can also in many cases be means of bypassing power.
This is where your hitting the wall of if thats the case, why not Galen above Emperor and so on and so forth..... You said we are Measuring ACHIEVED power..... well in the case of the jam both ACHIEVED the same.

If we wish to measure PURE strength, then we are Measuring Strength in the Force IE connection to the Force IE Potential.


Edit: to Be clear, yes Connection is important, the person running the water over the Jar doesnt have a completely lack of strength, they can still lift the Jar and hold it for an extended period of time and then still apply physical force to open the Jar AFTER its been set up by the water, thus some strength is applied.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
06.02.2014 , 11:06 AM | #735
Quote: Originally Posted by Darkelefantos View Post
What would be interesting to know is whether she was able to expertly apply her Force power in many different areas, like Yoda (btw, rivaling Yoda may be an overstatement), or if she had one or two strong suites that she mainly focused on (for example, lacks skill in tutaminis but has great skill in telekinesis).
I'd hypothesize that given that she lived for centuries, studying only the Force and foregoeing the lightsaber, that she has a broad range of skills. After all she got by in the Outer Rim without a weapon, you need to be broadly skilled to do that. I'd definitely say tutanimis, if you haven't got a lightsaber, you need to be able to deflect energy somehow.

Nothing she's displayed Control powers via healing, Alter powers via TK, and knowledge of Sense given that she was able to invade and then attack Ventress' mind, which suggests ability in other powers that come under those umbrellas.

Of course I doubt she matched the mastery of abilities that Yoda did, but then he's three times her senior.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
06.02.2014 , 11:08 AM | #736
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I'd hypothesize that given that she lived for centuries, studying only the Force and foregoeing the lightsaber, that she has a broad range of skills. After all she got by in the Outer Rim without a weapon, you need to be broadly skilled to do that. I'd definitely say tutanimis, if you haven't got a lightsaber, you need to be able to deflect energy somehow.

Nothing she's displayed Control powers via healing, Alter powers via TK, and knowledge of Sense given that she was able to invade and then attack Ventress' mind, which suggests ability in other powers that come under those umbrellas.

Of course I doubt she matched the mastery of abilities that Yoda did, but then he's three times her senior.
You can almost 100% say she has Tutaminis, it was 1 of the 3 Control umbrella skills taught to Jedi as Children in that era.

Darkelefantos's Avatar


Darkelefantos
06.02.2014 , 11:12 AM | #737
Now, now, we should focus on more important things than how the jam jar was opened. Like, was it raspberry jam?
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Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
06.02.2014 , 11:16 AM | #738
Quote: Originally Posted by darkelefantos View Post
now, now, we should focus on more important things than how the jam jar was opened. Like, was it raspberry jam?
Ha ha

Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
06.27.2014 , 02:18 PM | #739
So yeh... My Fay post.

Also, can we revisit the Revan vs Surik thing?
The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion. Culminating in a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away fromů save one.
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Posted the prologue of my first fanfic, Echoes.

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Aurbere
06.27.2014 , 03:53 PM | #740
Quote: Originally Posted by Selenial View Post
So yeh... My Fay post.

Also, can we revisit the Revan vs Surik thing?
We never really did a proper analysis of that...
Added Chapter 64 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus