Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Are Tanks Obsolete Outside of Operations?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Are Tanks Obsolete Outside of Operations?

SW_display_name's Avatar


SW_display_name
05.26.2014 , 01:47 PM | #141
Quote: Originally Posted by Khaleijo View Post
SW_display_name you are right that, given the time i'm playing MMOs, my perspective is in some way old fashioned, but in my opinion the role of the tank and the healer are still group roles, dependant of the others and supporting them. Why change things in a way that would increase the development into further "solo and independant" thinking, instead of giving more incentive to truely play together, to change the direction the new MMO players are going to?
This is an issue which ironically sort-of corroborates @Daekarus' early sentiment that he wishes MMOs never became popular or successful.

(spoiler'd to reduce length-spam)


Spoiler

SW_display_name's Avatar


SW_display_name
05.26.2014 , 01:54 PM | #142
Quote: Originally Posted by Daekarus View Post
So, to summarize, the biggest problem with a multiplayer game is the players. Has proven accurate about SWTOR PvP since the beginning, and I see it also applies to PVE.

Thank goodness my in-game observations of player behavior aren't as dismal as those portrayed in this thread.
I think most forum discussions involve some extreme hyperbole, partially because of neurosis and partially because it's just easier to make a broad point where you're painting in slightly bold colors.

I agree that most of my groups are quite fine. I can pick out less-skilled or less-dedicated players but it's rarely enough to spell total doom, just maybe minor nuisance. We just remember the "Group Finder Thread" people much more vividly because of human nature (emphasis on negative events).

That's another reason why I'm much less focused on "fixing" "people" which is an -level task, versus just trying to balance populations in queue so devs don't keep getting brilliant ideas for ways to obsolete Trinity roles.

I guess to me the compromise of still being the person that goes first and holds enemy attention, even in Queued content, even if the difficulty of doing so is watered-down, is a better alternative than no one needing me to show up at all outside HM Ops.

Loc_n_lol's Avatar


Loc_n_lol
05.26.2014 , 02:10 PM | #143
Quote: Originally Posted by SW_display_name View Post
Threat Management is fun for Tanks and not fun for basically everyone else
Well, then ,how about... making it everyone's problem ? I mean it already is, to an extent, because we have aggro dumps, but the way they work is incredibly obscure.
So, instead of focusing on ways for tanks to generate enormous aggro by looking at mobs, why not go the other way ? Make all aggro dumps super-overpowered, give every class the equivalent of removal from combat, threat reset to 0 ? Tanking then becomes a little bit of everyone's problem, instead of being all on the shoulders of one person, because if they screw up, well, you have that button to do their job for them (except in reverse).

Another idea: you could make guard super-overpowered in PvE too. Make the recipient transfer part or all of the threat they generate towards the tank. Bam! guard the healer = hold aggro on all the things without actually hitting them.

Clarian's Avatar


Clarian
05.26.2014 , 02:30 PM | #144
Quote: Originally Posted by SW_display_name View Post
Why not just concede defeat vs. human nature / reality and design engaging difficult content that is meant to be hand-PUG'd or run with friends / guildies... and then leave the queue for sightseeing?
And from there I don't think it's too far a step to solo sightseeing...which is what I want. And then you don't even need a queue!

(Because if you're getting four people together to do something that requires no real teamwork...why bother getting four people together?)

And then you could have more challenging (not just sightseeing) versions, since, being solo, you don't have the problem of mismatched skill levels or whatever.

But, one step at a time...

SW_display_name's Avatar


SW_display_name
05.26.2014 , 03:26 PM | #145
No, I do see what you're saying. In a way, coming full-circle and just ending the Queue Monster seems like a very simple and appealing solution that ends the "threat" of less-dedicated players to the Trinity system and classic MMO design (which has honestly been steadily eroding for almost 20 solid years, or what 50+ if you count tabletop RPGs).

I think you're underestimating what a giant gap that is, though. I see posters in this thread repeatedly under-valuing the experience of doing "stuff" with other people that's low-pressure / easy to succeed at.

Humans by nature enjoy social activity, especially easy social activity. This is sort of like suggesting that dance clubs should be removed because you can dance just as well alone inside your house, or in a pay-for room where you interact with holographic dancers.

But people wouldn't like that. They'd do it, but it would still be far less popular than the concrete box packed full of sweaty sardines 1 block down the street.

Why? Because "normal" people like doing things with other people. There's really nothing deeper than that. It's just biochemical programming and it isn't changing.

Where you're going off-course is this line of thinking:
  • Coordinated and 'serious' MMO organizational content is unpleasant, difficult, or confusing for many people
  • Therefore people don't like grouping in hard content or challenging content with serious risk of failure and repeated wipes
  • Therefore people don't like grouping

That 3rd point is way too much of a jump. The queue exists, and is popular, for a reason — people like doing "stuff" together in MMOs. I don't see an issue with leaving the queue as the "dance club" side of MMOs — show up, be of legal age to enter (level 55), and then screw around for an hour or three.

WoW definitely agrees, and BioWare seems to agree too (hence Tacticals & SM Bolster). This is a slope that probably isn't reversible.

Clarian's Avatar


Clarian
05.26.2014 , 03:43 PM | #146
Quote: Originally Posted by SW_display_name View Post
Where you're going off-course is this line of thinking:
That's not my line of reasoning. Plenty of single-player games are challenging and require repeated failures before you get them right. And, like I said, I'd like to see solo versions go beyond just sightseeing. So, level of difficulty isn't the essential difference between single-player and multi-player.

My line of reasoning is:
  • From what I hear, there seem to be a lot of people in this game who evince no interest in coordination, teamwork, consideration of other players, learning their role in a division of labor, etc.
  • Therefore people don't like grouping. Well, a significant chunk, anyway.

Quote: Originally Posted by SW_display_name View Post
I don't see an issue with leaving the queue as the "dance club" side of MMOs — show up, be of legal age to enter (level 55), and then screw around for an hour or three.
I don't see an issue with that either. I'm not saying replace the queue with solo versions...just add solo versions in addition to it. If it seems warranted by how people prefer to play, of course.

Quote: Originally Posted by SW_display_name View Post
This is a slope that probably isn't reversible.
Possibly not...but I think it's a slope that could lead to more options for solo play.

SW_display_name's Avatar


SW_display_name
05.26.2014 , 03:46 PM | #147
Quote: Originally Posted by Loc_n_lol View Post
Well, then ,how about... making it everyone's problem ? I mean it already is, to an extent, because we have aggro dumps, but the way they work is incredibly obscure.
Yeah, that is not a bad alternative approach. We're basically trying to do the same thing from different directions. In all cases you end up with Aggro being significantly simpler and less threatening (ha).

Quote:
So, instead of focusing on ways for tanks to generate enormous aggro by looking at mobs, why not go the other way ? Make all aggro dumps super-overpowered, give every class the equivalent of removal from combat, threat reset to 0 ? Tanking then becomes a little bit of everyone's problem, instead of being all on the shoulders of one person, because if they screw up, well, you have that button to do their job for them (except in reverse).
Spoiler


Quote:
Another idea: you could make guard super-overpowered in PvE too. Make the recipient transfer part or all of the threat they generate towards the tank. Bam! guard the healer = hold aggro on all the things without actually hitting them.
Spoiler


Supercharging Tank threat or otherwise making it easier for the Tanking player to generate has the advantage of preserving the need for Tanks to actually press buttons and hit things, they just get a much wider error margin when doing that (which can be constricted as you move through HM & NM to put more pressure on Tanks learning to organize Threat better).

ie, if Tanks just do more Threat, easier, you can still tune it to be obvious they're 'not as good' by that one Ranged mob still being loose, or the DPS tunneling an off-target taking aggro.

But you can reduce the number of explosive wipes caused by pulls simply going wild due to Tanks not understanding the ping-pong nature of Threat lockdown.

For example consider this:
Spoiler


It's an example. But just the sort of thing to think about — How can you bring Tanking down to a DPS / Healer level at the low end (where pressing buttons is usually good enough), without 'ruining' it at the higher end (where pressing the correct buttons at the correct time is crucial for every role)?

SW_display_name's Avatar


SW_display_name
05.26.2014 , 03:50 PM | #148
Quote: Originally Posted by Clarian View Post
My line of reasoning is:
  • From what I hear, there seem to be a lot of people in this game who evince no interest in coordination, teamwork, consideration of other players, learning their role in a division of labor, etc.
  • Therefore people don't like grouping. Well, a significant chunk, anyway.
But that's wrong. They like grouping, because they like doing "stuff" with other people. They just don't want complex burdensome tedious stuff. They want a dance club, not an academic conference or a chess match.

They're happier that other people are there and working with them. Don't dismiss that. They just also don't want to wipe repeatedly or otherwise be punished by orphic and abusive tactical requirements that are second-nature to us by virtue of experience.

Quote:
I don't see an issue with that either. I'm not saying replace the queue with solo versions...just add solo versions in addition to it. If it seems warranted by how people prefer to play, of course.
This is a totally separate topic, then, but IDD — "solo instances" run with a team of your companions would be a great addition to the game for everyone!

It just isn't a replacement for matchmade coop PvE. It's a totally additional thing.

Clarian's Avatar


Clarian
05.26.2014 , 03:51 PM | #149
Quote: Originally Posted by Clarian View Post
I don't see an issue with that either. I'm not saying replace the queue with solo versions...just add solo versions in addition to it. If it seems warranted by how people prefer to play, of course.
Come to think of it...maybe the solo versions and the group sightseeing versions would be one and the same thing. Maybe something tuned for four role-neutral casuals would be just right for a geared, skilled single player and their companion.

Clarian's Avatar


Clarian
05.26.2014 , 03:56 PM | #150
Quote: Originally Posted by SW_display_name View Post
But that's wrong. They like grouping, because they like doing "stuff" with other people.
I like doing group stuff myself. But that doesn't really prove anything, because I'd still trade it for solo versions in a heartbeat. How many other people would do the same? Who knows. Not, again, that I'm saying they should take away the group stuff.
Quote: Originally Posted by SW_display_name View Post
This is a totally separate topic, then, but IDD — "solo instances" run with a team of your companions would be a great addition to the game for everyone!

It just isn't a replacement for matchmade coop PvE. It's a totally additional thing.
That would indeed be awesome.