Are Tanks Obsolete Outside of Operations?

My argument is "You can't tank stupid", and until other players start looking at the big picture, and realizing they may be part of the problem, Band-Aids aren't going to cut it. So long as the part I highlighted is true, this issue is going to persist. Is it going to change anything? It might, you claim it has in the short term. Is it going to be a permanent repair? No. Because no matter what, we're going to have the "I can't do anything wrong, so it's your fault" players that are quick to point at somebody else as being to blame for a problem they might have caused. As I said, you can't fix this by bribing others to put up with it.

Seems like if people were never even trying to do the content when it was group-only and were now doing it solo, that's exactly what you'd want to capture.
Nowhere did I remotely suggest that people who aren't interested in group content are unintelligent, inferior, pathetic, etc. I'm one of them, after all.
You forgot my other option:
Far from telling them to go down with the ship, I think I'm suggesting an even newer shore: Let people group if they want, and let them do all the same content solo if they want.
Big changes often happen bit by bit. A change this big could even take a few generations of subscription games (if anyone ever even tries to make another subscription game of this scale again...) But notice that all the new directions they're taking for this have the effect of decreasing the group dynamics and the unique experiences of group play.

SW_display_name, you deserve a medal for how well you have been dealing with this forum!

And as for my 2 cents, I agree with you SW_display_nameon all your suggestions, but especially the suggestion of making dps gear work for tanking. I personally bearly have enough time to gear my 1 character, and if it was not for my dps gear still being viable for when I switch to my healing spec I would have only geared for my dps spec. But because it is viable for both I always que for dps and healing because I just really want a pop and I don't care which roll I fill. I do really enjoy both rolls just for the record. So for people like me making us not have to gear a character twice is a big step in the right direction!

As for the nay sayers: 1) People getting mad at you for taking is just a part of life and a bit of a personal problem. Most people just deal with it or just never que with randoms I guess.

2) Solo players in MMOs are a minority, and they should be. MMOs are called MMOs for a reason... there are plenty of single player games designed for those types of people. And I do feel that people in MMOs who want the genre to cater to solo only players as well cheapen the experience for the rest of us.

Then please tell me why do MMO people regularly invade solo/offline game forums asking "wouldn't it be cool if thisgame copuld be played online with friends as well" ?

Solo/Offline games should belong to solo/offline gamers, and not become some wishy-washy Franken-Hybrid between Solo/Offline and MMO/Onlione gaming, to put it harshly.

But thank God the publishers are on your side : Since the gaming induustry has realized that onlöine gaming is THE PERFECT DRM , solo & offline games are dying out ... You have won.

Because "current gen gamers" don't like to play alone. Why even local multiplayer is a bad thing then? Well, they don't have friends in real life (just a guess).

1. This is exactly why I don't use GF to find a group on my tanks. I have a guild and friends in my level ranges, although that's not hard, since all my tanks are 55. You won't find me in the queue, because I game to have fun, not put on my flame retardant armor to deflect John Wayne dps players, or fake healers in the queue flames because I chose to not tank stupidity.

2. Check it out, I'm still not playing this like a SP game when I do other than my dailies on the tanks, because I queue, in a full group, with my guild. So I'm playing group content in a group, just not one that's going to help random players with queue times. It doesn't matter what suggestions get made, or what alterations they make to gearing, I'm still going to queue with my guild. Why? Because I know what I'm getting into before we ever hit the button. I'll take that, and some fun laughing at drunk, or might as well be drunk players from guild opposed to "I don't need you to tank, but when I die, it's your fault because you didn't tank right", no matter what the truth may be.

In other words, as far as I can see, there's nothing wrong with the queue times, since ours instapop as soon as we hit the button, since we already have a full group. You know, taking advantage of that MMO aspect you were talking about?

I don't really have a problem with changing the itemization - I think it will remove some depth from the game, but I don't see that as nearly as important as the active gameplay experience. As long as hardmode content still requires skill and still has an actual tanking role, I'd be happy - as long as I can queue for HM stuff in the group finder. I would rather things not change but I can concede (after seeing it explained so well) that they must.

The big question is: if you're a dev and you're aware of the problem, what is the low-hanging fruit you can use to address the issue effectively with the least disruption and least work?

This is a very, very difficult decision design-wise IMO.

Offering HM or other "serious" queues has the advantage of allowing dedicated players to form groups faster, to multitask while doing dailies, etc.

On the other hand, you have no way of filtering out people who really shouldn't be there, because designing adequate algorithms to detect "player competence" is really, seriously much harder than it might sound on paper.

So it goes down two directions:

• Leave the queue active for "serious" content. If the queue tends to be a fail-filled wipefest, shrug — People wanting to avoid queue RNG can just PUG it, which they would be doing anyway without a queue. Therefore, adding the queue doesn't hurt anything.
• Only allow queuing for "fluff" content (SMs, Tacticals, etc) — stuff you definitely expect a matchmade group plucked from 4-16 random people on the server to be able to do. This removes "false advertising" for many players, getting a queue pop and expecting to be able to complete it (when it's actually far beyond their play ability, even if they meet the gear requirements) and reduces frustration for experienced players (getting a queue pop with 50% of the players incapable of completing it, doubling your time-to-finish with votekicks, etc).

Neither option makes or breaks Tanking, so it's a bit tangential to this topic, but it is worth considering. What would you honestly prefer?

I really don't know the answer, myself. Did having a queue for HM Kaon / Lost Island do more harm or more good? Czerka HMs?

I personally support your desire for single player games to remain so. A good example of a game that shouldn't become an MMO is The last of us. Now the developers could do it if they really wanted to, but I don't believe they would be able to recreate the rich and detailed story that game had to offer in a full multiplayer environment.

A big difference between MMOs and single player games are that in MMOs we have to play in the same world together, so the difficulty is the same for everyone across the board, and in single player games there are deferent levels of difficulties you can choose from a lot of the time. Cater too much to one side and then you will loose the other, and more importantly their subscription.

Anyway I think the most important thing when trying to "save" Tanking in the eyes of the majority player population (ie, make them non-averse to the role requirement) is to make any solution as simple as possible — do only what is necessary to increase population to palatable levels that balance out queue times.

To do that, the first thing we have to do is zoom out and ask: "Why don't more people Tank?" This is probably a study worthy of a PhD thesis so let's not expect any absolute truths to come out in a quick brainstorming session, but I can come up with a list of fairly safe guesses from both my own observations, talking to others, and my own experiences getting into MMOs:

• Tanking requires specialized gear. Whether this is fair or not conceptually, it annoys people and intimidates people and discourages people. It's a barrier to entry for "GenPop".
• Tanking is hard. That's pretty vague, but we'll dissect it more below.
• Tanking is scary and annoying. You have to lead. People yell at you. Not knowing tactics can wipe groups much faster than DPS or Heals. Any group that outgears content treats you like a third wheel that doesn't exist. The list goes on — Tanking requires thicker skin than other roles.
• Tank specs are bland. Well, they are — most Tank specs have a theme of being "defensive" and... not much else. It's appealing to Tank personalities (like me), but probably not very appealing to most players, who want something gratifying and cool.
• Tank rotations don't matter. A DPS is doing high DPS and killing things. A healer is keeping people alive. A Tank establishes initial Threat, and then... hits buttons, because hitting buttons. It's not very visceral or satisfying.
• More?

Let's look at "Tanking is Hard" in more detail. Why is it hard for most players?

• Mistakes cause deaths. If a healer can't heal people, it's usually the deceased's fault for doing something stupid. If a Tank lets Aggro slip, it's usually the Tank's vault for not being omniscient and getting distracted. There is a lot of pressure to generate Aggro and not lose it, and it's very scary when you find yourself drowning under a seemingly-hopeless tide of wild Aggro.
• You need to have a very good plan for some pulls / bosses. Iif you flub that plan or someone disrupts it by doing something unexpected, you can enter a state of panic where you can't figure out how to recover because your habitual tools are on CD and people are dying / screaming.
• ... ???

Wow. Actually, is Tanking hard? I mean I don't see any of the following aspects of Tanking as particularly hard, certainly no harder than doing good DPS or healing through a difficult boss:

• Survival. Gearing correctly, being in the correct Stance, being in the correct Spec, and learning to press your CDs — all very, very easy for anyone to correct — take care of nearly all of this. The rest is just pressing buttons and resource management so, eg, you're Force Screaming on CD or keeping a good Heat Blast uptime or not dropping Dark Protection.
• Maintaining Threat. Once Aggro is initially locked down, as long as you're continually pressing buttons (and especially once you learn to taunt-boost), you can pretty much AFK and grab a latté.
• Leading. This actually isn't very hard — walk forward, hit stuff. In a worst-case scenario, the group can point you in the correct direction, or you can follow the lead of the OCD angry impatient DPS.
• Tactics. Again, this actually isn't very hard. Most SWTOR bosses have simplistic overall strategies that can easily be explained in Group chat. Even an inexperienced Tank can be directed fairly easily with a little coaching and (worst-case scenario) 1, maybe 2, wipes to learn what the Simon Says indicators are for adds spawning, etc.

It seems like that most intimidating thing about Tanking — beyond unnecessary barriers to entry we've discussed ad nauseum, and which should absolutely be removed if BioWare has any sense about them — is the fear of failure, which is perceived (rightly) as having greater consequences for Tanks than other roles.

But where do Tanks actually "fail"?

• It's not Survival. Teaching someone "PRESS THIS BUTTON WHEN..." is within the grasp of anyone, like teaching DPS players to push their DPS cooldowns. This isn't making or breaking most Queue content.
• It's not holding Threat. Once initial Aggro is established, especially if you teach a newbie Tank about taunt-boosting (but even if you don't!), it's usually glued on.
• It's not Leading. Anyone can successfully wander forward and start pulls if they feel confident that they'll be able to do their job right once it begins.
• It's not Tactics. To clarify, every role fails about equally at tactics, and every role needs explaining about equally in Group Finder for the fights to go properly — Heals or DPS that don't know tactics can and will wipe groups. So this is an equal-opportunity issue that probably doesn't stop anyone from queueing, including Tanks.

That leaves the following major areas for Tanks to seriously, undeniably fail:

• Aggro. Locking down correct initial Aggro, keeping it off Heals (which can spell Party Wipe in short order), and keeping it off overgeared or OCDedicated DPS that don't following your target or kill order, etc — is terrifying, and the most discouraging experience for most new Tanks. Because people get (justifiably) very angry when your job is to keep deadly mob attacks off of them... and you don't.
• Thus, I believe the single most discouraging factor to any new Tank is the difficulty adapting to a mindset of "Hit everything, let everyone else focus kills", coming from a character-lifetime of focusing down 1 thing at a time while soloing, as well as while DPSing for Groups.

Basically: You would probably see a huge spike in willing Tanks if establishing Aggro to a baseline non-party-wiping degree was extraordinarily easy, similar to how easy it is to keep your shoulders down as DPS or Heals and just focus on one thing (your current mob, your group's health frames).

So then let's recap what seems to be the biggest discouraging factors keeping more players from stepping up to Tank queueable content:

• The stress of establishing and locking down initial Aggro, which is prone to extreme failure and inciting the fury of your groupmates.
• Unnecessary gear barriers, discouraging membership in Role that, at baseline, is already the least-tempting to people.
• Social factors related to the treatment of Tanks and lack of respect for the role's efforts.
• Blandness and lack of flashy "OMG COOL" Star Wars effects. Even if you're not doing slaughterhouse-level DPS, you should feel like it visually to reward your efforts.
• AFK-and-fall-asleep rotations once Threat is locked down — "Why am I even here? Oh yes, to move this boss 20 meters every 30 seconds."

Basically: Make Tanking as Easy and Appealing as DPS at a baseline level, while still allowing room for dedicated and expert Tanks to clearly shine and stand out and feel proud of their skill — just like a mediocre DPS is adequate, but a great DPS is a godsend.

Right now we have a situation where a mediocre Tank is a punishment, and a great Tank is a godsend. We need to close this gap, so mediocre Tanks aren't afraid of queuing and don't punish their group by being there.

I will discuss my own views on how to best do this... after breakfast.