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Restructuring Classes in SWTOR

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Restructuring Classes in SWTOR

brewergamer's Avatar


brewergamer
05.19.2014 , 06:24 AM | #61
When you oversimplify things like this, there WILL 100% guaranteed be that "one best" spec for every class, and be no diversity in between classes. So idk about doing this. I mean if you can wield 2 sabers as knight AND tank, why wield 1 lightsaber?
Brewer GodofPvP

Superman_AZ's Avatar


Superman_AZ
05.19.2014 , 06:28 AM | #62
Quote: Originally Posted by brewergamer View Post
When you oversimplify things like this, there WILL 100% guaranteed be that "one best" spec for every class, and be no diversity in between classes. So idk about doing this. I mean if you can wield 2 sabers as knight AND tank, why wield 1 lightsaber?
Some people might prefer the damage mitigation of a shield in some fights, and then bump up there output in other fights. Like a Warrior in WoW. Sword/Shield, 2 one handed swords, or specialize into Titan grip with 2 two-handed swords. Every fight is set differently, so allowing a tank to change up his gear based on the fight would actually allow for a marginally higher success rate.
"Be yourself, no one can ever tell you you're doing it wrong." ~ James Leo Herlihy

Styxx's Avatar


Styxx
05.19.2014 , 07:11 AM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
Some people might prefer the damage mitigation of a shield in some fights, and then bump up there output in other fights. Like a Warrior in WoW. Sword/Shield, 2 one handed swords, or specialize into Titan grip with 2 two-handed swords. Every fight is set differently, so allowing a tank to change up his gear based on the fight would actually allow for a marginally higher success rate.
Or they could keep it as it is and for the man hours they could actually fix bugs.

I ask you again: what significant advantage will your idea give over the existing model?
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SW_display_name's Avatar


SW_display_name
05.19.2014 , 12:25 PM | #64
Quote: Originally Posted by ekwalizer View Post
This would be nothing like the NGE. The NGE took 32 completely different classes and mushed them into 9. Most of them got the axe, but they consolidated the Crafters.

This wouldn't change an awful lot, rather than picking an AC when you reach the fleet, your AC would be determined by the majority of your skillpoints. You'd just have access to all five trees. It provides more choice, as "AC Swap" becomes as easy as spec changing is currently. The difference being, the ACs themselves kind of go away.
Not literally, but it has the same vibe of "stirring the pot" unnecessarily long after people have become comfortable and adapted to the current system.

True you'd be changing less than something as massive as what Sony did (from what I can tell — SWG was way before my gaming time ), but there would still be a lot of chaos, confusion, deletion, and massive changes to class feel as everything settled out.

I did say it would be "easy" to merge ACs, but that's not the same thing as "trivial" — ie, "easy" things can still be very time-consuming.

The problem is that each AC has a big swath of subtle features designed to make it tick / work correctly in the overall scheme. Merging 2 ACs mashes all that together and creates some serious messes.

Then there's how much hybridization you allow — do Assassins get Force Barrier now? Or do only previous Sorc trees get Force Barrier? Do you get it for speccing deep enough into a Sorc tree? What about Cloak of Shadows (Force Whatever, all the Sin CDs sound the same), do Sorcs get that now?

People get flustered enough by stuff like Expansion class revamps or even minor patches, this would unleash a lot more chaos than it seems at first, especially for the devs balance-wise.

This is an issue other MMOs encounter — dedicated players will patiently re-learn anything you ask them, but many less-dedicated players (the ones which, ironically, make up most of the profit/subscription base) tend to just quit and move on if you frustrate them too much.

LordArtemis's Avatar


LordArtemis
05.19.2014 , 02:34 PM | #65
Quote: Originally Posted by Daekarus View Post
OK, so you know already this is a lot of effort. If you want to sell it to the devs (I don't really care either way, like how it is now but I'm not married to the idea) then you're going to have to tell them WHY they should trash the system they've had in place since... forever.... and streamline things like this. What problems are you solving? Why do these problems exist? Are there other less... disruptive things we can do to address these issues? What is the greater impact on player content consumption patterns that this change will create?

Basically... why should they bother?
I could give my opinion here, though you certainly didn't ask me.

If I was asked this question and I indicated I supported the idea, this would be why in a nutshell....

1) Current system offers a set of utility options that is more complicated than it needs to be.

Almost every utility option offered could be offered with a simpler system. In fact, I would have removed ACs all together, moved the current class names to specs instead and had 4 specs instead....tank, healer, DPS, hybrid. Every spec would be culled down to around 10 abilities max and the rest would be boosts and enhancements.

2) AC change, as some seem to desire, would not longer be needed by those folks.

Removing AC, adding a 4th spec would allow folks to respec to what they wish when they wish it, since it would no longer represent class change.

3) Easier to expand abilities and to balance as level cap increases.

Having a 4 base spec loadout with no ACs makes it much easier to design proper content to join level cap increases, as well as balance play and add abilities. Only one mirror of an ability will exist (mirror class).

4) Options for impressive custom builds would be almost endless.

Folks could actually create custom loadouts for Solo PVE only, or flashpoint runs, operations, PVP, etc. Having more refined but simpler specs also means changes to one spec would be less likely to effect another spec that is generally for one side of the game, like PVE vs PVP.

Overall it gives a player more options with less work and more potential (less work past the initial rebuild of course).

Now, what is important is that there would have to a long testing period and a "transition", where players could try out the new system and abilities without losing the current setup in the live game...eventually, after a bit of work, all players could be transitioned to the new system.

I am of the belief that the current system actually hinders growth, and a change is need. Though not the only cause, it is a contributing factor IMO.

Superman_AZ's Avatar


Superman_AZ
05.19.2014 , 02:37 PM | #66
Quote: Originally Posted by Styxx View Post
what significant advantage will your idea give over the existing model?
In the existing model:

In order to play two advanced classes, you need to roll two completely separate characters, you need two separate sets of gear, and you are limited to which skill trees, gear, and weapons you may use.

In my most recent revision:

You would simply play one character, have access to 5 skill trees, use various gear and weapons based on your class, and the advanced class would simply disappear.

The significance? Your Bounty Hunter can now be a PowerTech, a Mercenary, or a Hybrid combo of the two. Now you can experience the story, and respec from Tank, to DPS (any of the 3), or Heal, without ever having to roll another Bounty Hunter unless you want one. This puts the complete control and customization in the hands of the player. ACs were a mistake, and AC swapping would just be a bigger band-aid on an existing issue. Removing the AC entirely and building the 2 spare Damage trees into every build would open up all kinds of doors.

So, let me ask you: Would you rather play with two different Bounty Hunters, two different sets of gear, and double the playtime and expense, OR would you rather have access to all 5 skill trees and gear on ONE Bounty Hunter with the ability to field respec as a Tank / DPS / Heal?
"Be yourself, no one can ever tell you you're doing it wrong." ~ James Leo Herlihy

Superman_AZ's Avatar


Superman_AZ
05.19.2014 , 02:39 PM | #67
Quote: Originally Posted by LordArtemis View Post
I could give my opinion here, though you certainly didn't ask me.

If I was asked this question and I indicated I supported the idea, this would be why in a nutshell....

1) Current system offers a set of utility options that is more complicated than it needs to be.

Almost every utility option offered could be offered with a simpler system. In fact, I would have removed ACs all together, moved the current class names to specs instead and had 4 specs instead....tank, healer, DPS, hybrid. Every spec would be culled down to around 10 abilities max and the rest would be boosts and enhancements.

2) AC change, as some seem to desire, would not longer be needed by those folks.

Removing AC, adding a 4th spec would allow folks to respec to what they wish when they wish it, since it would no longer represent class change.

3) Easier to expand abilities and to balance as level cap increases.

Having a 4 base spec loadout with no ACs makes it much easier to design proper content to join level cap increases, as well as balance play and add abilities. Only one mirror of an ability will exist (mirror class).

4) Options for impressive custom builds would be almost endless.

Folks could actually create custom loadouts for Solo PVE only, or flashpoint runs, operations, PVP, etc. Having more refined but simpler specs also means changes to one spec would be less likely to effect another spec that is generally for one side of the game, like PVE vs PVP.

Overall it gives a player more options with less work and more potential (less work past the initial rebuild of course).

Now, what is important is that there would have to a long testing period and a "transition", where players could try out the new system and abilities without losing the current setup in the live game...eventually, after a bit of work, all players could be transitioned to the new system.

I am of the belief that the current system actually hinders growth, and a change is need. Though not the only cause, it is a contributing factor IMO.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
"Be yourself, no one can ever tell you you're doing it wrong." ~ James Leo Herlihy

ZETA_SCORPII's Avatar


ZETA_SCORPII
05.19.2014 , 03:17 PM | #68
So what would happen to the extra 8 alts many have spent a lot of time and money on? I only have 11 and some are exact clones so I can raid more with my favorite class, but what would happen to the extra alts we have? This game was built with rolling multiple alts in mind so why fix something that isn't broke? The devs already work on class balance and have been doing a good job so far imo so there is no need to change what we have now. Seriously, what would you tell someone who took the time to gear a Merc and Powertech in full Dread Forged sets?

Petnil's Avatar


Petnil
05.19.2014 , 03:38 PM | #69
I cant believe anyone actually think spending time restructuring classes and trying to get them somewhat balanced will make SWTOR more succesfull.

Having an AC reset is one thing, i can see that happening. I dont think an AC reset will make SWTOR a better game, but it's a QoL thing i guess for people that want to try the other AC but dont want to level an alt.

An AC reset is much much simpler than restructuring and rebalancing classes and the result is basicly the same. So why would you spend the few and very limited resourses on something that can be achieved with a simple AC reset.

An AC reset would take zero restructuring and zero rebalancing and achieve the same endresult

Superman_AZ's Avatar


Superman_AZ
05.19.2014 , 03:51 PM | #70
Quote: Originally Posted by ZETA_SCORPII View Post
So what would happen to the extra 8 alts many have spent a lot of time and money on? I only have 11 and some are exact clones so I can raid more with my favorite class, but what would happen to the extra alts we have? This game was built with rolling multiple alts in mind so why fix something that isn't broke? The devs already work on class balance and have been doing a good job so far imo so there is no need to change what we have now. Seriously, what would you tell someone who took the time to gear a Merc and Powertech in full Dread Forged sets?
Well, good news. You would STILL have them. Only now, they would have 5 skill trees instead of 3, and instead of an AC, they would simply be known by their class type. Absolutely NOTHING changes for you. You would still be geared, specc'd, etc the exact same way. The only difference is, now your Operative and Sniper are no longer Operative and Sniper. They are simply Agents.
"Be yourself, no one can ever tell you you're doing it wrong." ~ James Leo Herlihy