Restructuring Classes in SWTOR

That sounds a lot like WoW if I remember correctly. Been ages since I've played that game. In the beginning each class had 3 talent trees, but when I left all you could choose was between 3 different skills at certain levels.

Is that what you want here as well OP? Personally for me, hell no. I love the differences between my Merc and PT for example. And not the 1 dps tree has to fit for all of the Bounty Hunters as you are proposing.

Besides it's more fun, in my opionion at least, to play more than one character. Compared to a one character fits all attitude. With fewer options available to them as well. I don't think you can combine the 3 different DPS trees of the Merc and PT into 1.

One thing I find really silly is the weapon restrictions, at least on non force user classes.

Why can't my BH use at least a Blaster Rifle, I'm not asking for Snipers or Cannons but just a simple rifle...

It is no secret that I do not support AC respec. That said, I do consider myself to be fair minded most of the time. My biggest aversion to AC Respec in the context of how it has historically been asked for is that you are basically going from one class to another. Now we (the community) can and have argued the semantics of what a class is until we were all blue in the face - but none of us are actual authorities on the matter - only the Devs hold that honor.

I had a similar idea to yours a while back, but instead of having only three (3) trees we would have five (5). Our "AC" would be determined by the trees in which we spent the majority of our points. In the event we take the "middle tree", we remain labeled as your Story Class. This way, only one tree per archetype needs to be addressed and mirrored. To that end, rotation based abilities would need to be determined since they are neither technically "this AC" nor "that AC".

The Skill Tree window roughly takes up 60% of the width of our displays by default, so an additional two tree panels wouldn't be too large, or make it so that the icons and text had to be tiny.

So for (example) Bounty Hunters, it would look something like this:

//-POWERTECH------------------//-BOUNTY HUNTER-//----MERCENARY-------------//
//-Shield Tech--// -Adv. Proto.--//---------Pyrotech------- //----Arsenal--//-Bodyguard-//

When the first talent point is placed into Shield Tech, the Body Guard tree would become locked out (and vice versa). The same would apply to the other Tank/Healer classes.

//---------ASSASSIN----------//--INQUISITOR--//---SORCERER---------------//
//-Darkness-/-Deception-/------Madness----/----Lightning-/-Corruption-//

In addition to the Tank/Heal restrictions, for this stealth abilities would need to be restricted to the Assassin side of the tree. And I don't have a clear answer on how to answer that challenge with regard to Madness.

//------------SNIPER----------//----AGENT----//------OPERATIVE---------------//
//-Marksman-/--Engineer--/---Lethality---/---Concealment---/--Medical--//

Again, there would need to be a stealth restriction to the Operative side of the scale. I don't know the solution for Lethality.

//--------JUGGUERNAUT--------//----WARRIOR----//----------MARAUDER------------//
//--Immortal--/---Vengeance---/--------Rage-------/---Annihilation---/---Carnage---//

For this there would need to be a Heavy armor restriction to the Juggernaut side of the class. I don't necessarily see that a dual wielding juggernaut would be a major issue since all of the dual wielding abilities would remain within historic marauder trees. Again, cracking the nut on which AC the center leans is not something I've been able to do as of yet.

The main reason that I don't like truncating the current system down to three is that, while a small segment, there are still many players out there who play in what the majority deem to be "deviant specs". There are still those who regularly play Advanced Prototype Powertechs. In fact, there have always been more Arsenal Mercenaries than PyroMercs. I would further argue that more Sniper/Slingers play Engineer/Saboteur than play Marksman/Sharp Shooter. I would wager that there are likely some Carnage based Marauders to be found out there, it is after all, a big galaxy. But I realize you were (probably) going for iconic roles of the Advanced Classes. This is another example of the primary reason why I would recommend all five rather than three.

I fully agree that what a character holds in their hands is virtually irrelevant and support your thoughts on that matter. At the end of the day, Stat budget itemization will determine what we use in our off-hand for the lion's share of players. For a very small segment, how they look in game will be the deciding factor. I will point out that you omitted the Assault Cannon, not sure if that was intentional but to my mind there is no reason why it cannot remain. That said, weapon based animations would become the issue at bar for the developers to trudge through.

There are a couple schools of thought on how to "crack the middle tree nut". These are by no means all inclusive, just what I was able to come up with in a short amount of time. I must take into account current hand-held restrictions at this time.

Option 1: The middle tree remains closely aligned to how you begin the game, you are neither "this AC" nor "that AC", you are simply identified by your story class. The leveling abilities you gain are in line with the restrictions of your base class. So for example a Warrior Specc'd in Rage, would use a single saber, medium armor and would be allowed a non-weapon offhand devise. A Pyrotech would outwardly look like a Powertech due to the use of a single pistol. A Madness Inquisitor would wield a single bladed saber.

This option presents a problem for the Rage spec, as you are giving up both protection and DPS while gaining neither. For Madness, you can neither heal nor stealth.

This option, in my opinion, just seems too restrictive. I'm sure there are players out there that this would appeal to, after all we do have players that never select an AC for whatever reason.

Option 2: The middle tree becomes a true hybrid. Hand-held possibilities are wide open based on what the overall class is limited to. The middle tree would naturally have to gain and lose some from each. Certain AC based abilities would have to be moved to the Talent Trees.

• Every dual wield only ability changes to "also applies if dual wielding".
• Every double-bladed only ability changes to "also applies with Double-bladed Weapon".
• Rage would be Heavy Armor. Rage Spec would retain Juggernaut DPS specific DCDs, not Marauder DCDs.
• Madness would not get Force Pull.
• Rage would not get Force Push.
• Pyrotech would not get Harpoon or Concussion Missile. Railshot is proc'd now by Rocket Punch and Unload. Carbonize is retained as is sweeping blasters. It keeps ElectroNet and Jet Boost but looses Kolto Missile and Healing Scan. It looses Power Shot and keeps Rapid Scan.
• Stealth Restrictions - Madness and Lethality would get an out of combat stealth but no combat escape stealth.
• Battle Rez - Pyrotech, Madness and Lethality would not get a Battle Rez.

There would necessarily have to be some tweaking to every Spec (not so much for Tank/Heal) to provide balance and a viable, useful role for each spec.

Bounty Hunter:

• Tank (Shield Tech)
• Melee Single Target DPS (Adv. Proto.)
• Mid Range AOEer (Pyro)
• Ranged Single Target DPS (Arsenal)
• Heal (Bodyguard).

Inquisitor:

• Tank (Darkness)
• Melee Single Target DPS (Deception)
• Ranged AOE (Madness)
• Ranged Single Target DPS (Lightning)
• Healer (Corruption)

Agent:

• Ranged Single Target DPS (Marksman)
• Ranged AOE (Engineer)
• Mid Range AOE (Lethality)
• Single Target Melee (Concealment)
• Healer (Medic)

Warrior:

• Tank (Immortal)
• Heavy Armor Melee AOE Dot DPS (Vengeance)
• Heavy Armor Melee AOE Burst DPS (Rage)
• Medium Armor Single Target Melee DoT DPS (Annihilation)
• Medium Armor Single Target Melee Burst DPS (Carnage)

This would eliminate the need to select an AC at all, as your "AC" would be determined by point distribution. It would give players "more options" as they now have 5 full trees to choose from where the only (skill point) choice limitations are applied to Tank/Healing combinations.

QFT.

There isn`t and never has been a problem with the existing system past the player that refuses to level one more toon.

You see, it is simpler to have two toons on each faction: one tank / dps and one dps / healer and switch and swap at will, with legacy respec and all than to change all classes without any real gain. Because you aren`t gaining anything past your own agenda, OP.

Get leveling and complain less would be my advice, since this will never happen - your idea - which is a good thing.
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I could agree that I am wrong IF you can prove to me that your system is simpler than Bioware`s - leveling a toon takes time, which costs monthly revenue, or a char slot, or some armor that might need dyes and ultimately inflates those starter world numbers so the game looks really alive and, ultimately, takes no effort whatsoever on their part.

Because removing content is the answer! If you want multiple classes on one character go play GW2. I will say what I've said multiple times: If you want a class at 55, get off your lazy behind and go level it.

As one of the few in the other thread I'll bite for this one post before I head off for the weekend.

I think this breakdown of intended class structure shows you fail to understand why Advanced Classes are there in the first place.
The need to keep core heal and tank abilities segregated from the other advanced Class specialisations.

I'll try and explain it another way...

The role you end up playing is determined by the specialisation you choose, but there will still be some abilities out with that specialisation that are used for that role and are attached to the Advanced Class.

So, my Bounty Hunter plays as a Powertech and goes Advanced Prototype (Melee DPS) the active abilities gained are Retractable Blade and Immolate, but that DPS build still has access to the taunts and shield generator of the Powertech. If, through an AC swap I change that character to a Mercenary Healer, they do not retain the taunts and ability to use a shield generator.

By conflating the ACs all you do is remove this restriction and fundamentally alter the underlying balance of abilities and builds. Something a simple AC swap feature would not do.

So how is reducing the 2 ACs down into one class with 3 specs covering the same roles, and then allowing the player to then swap the character between those roles, any different than a more complex way of setting up an AC swap feature?
Unless you eliminate the ability to swap between specialisations and then all you do is substitute the feeling of being 'trapped in an AC' with the feeling of being 'trapped in a specialisation'.
One of the arguments for allowing an AC swap is that it increases the time played on an individual character. You argued at length that allowing an AC swap reduces potential playtime by half. How is you suggestion of removing half the ACs any different?
The end result is exactly the same, a player that, at most needs to level up one character of each class.

It actually introduces far more complications in that it unbalances the distribution of abilities across the Advanced Classes (see above), removes options, and looks like it would involve far more development time.
Players wanting to spend more time in the game, playing their character, their way has always been they key argument for allowing an AC swap feature.

I think you've embraced the sentiment behind the argument for allowing an AC swap feature while completely mis-understanding the mechanics and elements behind balancing the active and passive abilities distributed between the Advanced Classes and Specialisations.

Perhaps you can explain to me how it is, exactly, that allowing AC respec would "increase" the time played on any individual character? Daily/Weekly Reward/Lockouts are applied to characters, not to ACs. PvP is unlimted regardless of your AC. There is no limit per day on how much you can craft or how often you can use the GTN.

Is there a single aspect of the game, whereby allowing AC respec would in fact increase the eligible content?
I struggle to find an affirmative answer to this question.

The ACs weren't designed to be played "their way", they were designed to be played Bioware's way.

This essentially is the defining reason as to why it (AC Respec) should not be done in any capacity.

Not going to happen because it's a logistical nightmare for little benefit, but conceptually I think it's reasonable.

No class story is affected by your AC choice. This is perhaps most blatant in the Inquisitor / Consular stories, which feel written for Sorc/Sage and offer little to zero change if you choose the stealthy / deep-cover assassin path.

So AC is strictly a gameplay concession that the plot blithely ignores after your single level 10 "Pick an AC" mission. Meaning, it's really not important whether you're a PT or a Merc except when you pop open Group Finder.

Condensing SWTOR down to 8 classes (which is all we 'really' have anyway in a lot of senses) and giving it the World of Warcraft treatment where a single class can have Tank, Heal, and DPS would probably have little real impact on the game's play quality.

Examples:

Warrior:

Tank (Juggernaut)
Simple — this is the Tanking tree. It uses a single Saber + Shield Generator. Nothing really changes.

DPS (Vengeance)
This is the same single-saber DPS tree as Jugg currently has, preserving the 1-saber style for those who prefer the visual.

DPS (dual-saber)
Here we hit a problem — do you cut Annihilation or Carnage? Merge them together into one DPS spec that uses Bleed procs outside Gore, and focuses on collapsing damage during Gore windows?

No matter what, someone is unhappy, but you can't give 1 class 4 DPS specs (I mean you can, but, seriously unnecessary design bloat). And what happens to Rage? Do we follow a 4-spec system? (Tank, 1-saber DPS, 2-saber DPS, AoE DPS)?

And Armor Proficiencies? Do you give all Marauders Heavy Armor effectively, or put all Juggs in Medium and then scale up their armor in Tank stance?

Inquisitor:

Tank (Darkness)
Nothing really changes. Uses a dual-bladed saber and a Shield Generator.

Heal (Corruption)
Again, direct port from Sorcerer. Single saber + Force Focus.

DPS (???)
Now you have 4 trees to choose from: Deception, Madness (Melee), Lightning, and Madness (Range). Again, do you give one class 4 DPS specs, or start cutting and killing pieces?

Probably a case could be made for deleting Madness and merging its gameplay into Deception (melee pieces) and Lightning (range pieces), giving Inquisitor a spread of Tank/Heal/MDPS/RDPS, which is reasonable.

Bounty Hunter:

Tank (Powertech)
Single pistol + Shield Generator, Tank cylinder... nothing changes here.

Heal (Bodyguard)
Again, nothing changes. Dual Pistols, heal cylinder.

DPS (???)
Again we face 4 trees: Advanced Prototype, Pyrotech (Melee), Arsenal, Pyrotech (Range). Once again I suppose you could delete the 'shared' tree (Pyro) and merge its interesting pieces into the definitive Melee (AP) and Range (Arsenal) trees, but all 3 BH DPS specs are very distinct — someone would be unhappy no matter what you do.

Agent:

Heal (Medicine)
Nothing needs to change. Rifle + Knife.

DPS (Concealment)
MDPS tree. Rifle + Knife. Stealth tools.

DPS (???)
And then 3.5 RDPS trees — Lethality (Melee), Lethality (Range), Marksmanship, Engineering.

You could make a fairly good argument that Lethality isn't adding much as a tree (at least in PvE) and could probably die and be absorbed into other trees without anyone shedding too many tears.

So perhaps a spread of Medicine (Heal), Concealment (MDPS), Marksmanship (RDPS), Engineering (AoE).

At first I assumed this thread was a petty provocation effort, but when you sit down and think about it, it's actually pretty easy to clip the ACs and condense down to 4 core classes without really losing much.

I mean yes, there would be some serious growing pains as you shift some components and tools around, and some very unhappy people as their spec explodes, but as WoW and other MMOs have demonstrated — sometimes you really do have to grit your teeth and break eggs to make a better product.

All that said, I'm not sure this is necessary in the slightest vs. the relative simplicity of an AC swap. But in a magical unicorn world where BioWare has the free resources to do something this frivolous, I think we would end up with stronger and more appealing classes.

According to whom? Who determines what is pretty easy, and who also determines which spec's get cut?

This game copied itself in virtually every way to WoW, and tried to go above and beyond with full VO. Neither caused even a blip on Bizzard's RADAR. I don't see how becoming even more WoW-like is a definite positive for this game. All evidence we have, to date, suggests that nothing they do will take players away from WoW, so why add more WoW features?

Just as those of us in the opposition do not see AC Swap as necessary in the slightest vs. the relative simplicity of rolling a new toon.

I'm not 100% diametrically opposed to AC change. I do feel that if they trivialize AC choice by allowing it, then they should just do away with the hard ACs altogether and allow players access to all 5 trees on one window (as I pointed out above).

So much tinkering and tweaking and rearranging to make anything like any of the ideas in this thread work...

But if I could have a say in the direction that a major restructuring of the classes and specs would take, my thought would be to take a step way back and make an actual skill TREE out of the whole thing instead of the current system of columns which are primarily progressed by tiers instead of by prerequisites. Start with some basic options at the bottom which essentially ask you to buy your way into the spec(s) you want to develop (with some lockouts on some of them to prevent certain combinations). Spending your first few skill points on these core abilities would grant you many of the passive abilities that set the current advanced classes apart. Choosing these would be required before getting into anything else. Those act as prerequisites to a number of additional options which would influence overall playstyle. Branch out from there to the sets of skills associated with that style. And so on.

I suppose visually I'm picturing the base of the tree looking something like the GSF upgrades where you can only pick one or the other of the two upgrades at the same level. Draw some sort of indicator like that in between the "commit to heals" and "commit to tank" selectors. Only one or the other can be picked. That selection then allows access to that branch of the tree.

I'd probably have it build more actual abilities into the skill trees. In particular I'd have stances for ALL classes and I'd put all of the stances in the tree or I'd have them be one of the things gained when you spend a point into one of the core abilities which start that branch. I'd consider beginning earning points to spend right away instead of at level 10. We'll need some extra points to work through the prerequisites to the different specs / branches and to spend on things that have been moved to the tree from the trainer. I'd also consider changing the skill points into a more abundant currency (5 points per level-up?) and at the same time I'd change it so that it can cost different amounts of points to level up different abilities in the tree (maybe smaller perks cost 1 point per level, bigger perks cost 3 points per level, and new skills cost a full 5 points to learn).

I can't begin to flesh it all out like others here have done with their ideas. But you get the basic idea. Skill TREE instead of the tree-in-name-only that we currently get. (Use actual prerequisites more instead of just using the 5 point tiers.) Specs = branches on the tree, and those could have branches to upgrade specific skills even more and to develop different aspects of the play style. Expand trees to include many of the skills currently learned from the class trainer. (In addition to that, imagine if the class trainer was reworked so that we're purchasing additions or alterations to the skill tree. This would allow the trainer to still be relevant for upgrades even if all of the actual new skills are moved off of it.) Expand the skill point budget, but make different investments on the tree cost different amounts of skill points.