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Ahsoka Tano, why the hate?


tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
05.13.2014 , 02:47 PM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
The reason was partly explained in TCW and then explored further in a novel:
Spoiler
Really though when I first saw Maul holed up on a junk planet with spider legs as such, I didn't question it, because it was fantasy, I went with the flow. And it fit with the fantasy feel, this idea of demons coming back to haunt you and such with mysterious explanations. The Force doesn't make sense either, then they explained it...

I realise this is a matter of perspective, but we can't forget this is a fantasy universe where the impossible is possible and doesn't always need an explanation, which in part IMO enriches the fantasy experience.

P.S. The Maul related episodes, especially The Lawless & Revenge are widely regarded as some of the best episodes of bunch, and Maul is definitely one of my favourite TCW characters, but each to their own I guess.

P.P.S. I do hope you didn't avoid those episodes just because of this, because that would be silly.
Even in fantasy and in sci-fi they have established rules in the universe, things people can and can not do. It was out side the rules the univer set up.

And of course I did not avoid any of those episodes. When I heard how well regarded they were by the fan base I had to see if the execution was what every one talked about and if it was successful in doing what i feared it wasnt.... and for me it just wasnt. They barely glance over him being alive and the best moments for me were from the characters the show introduced NOT MAUL. I liked the criminal (drawing blank on names right now) and the loss of the Mando queen was very emotional, but every scene with maul for me was me waiting for him to grow a mustache to twirl to the point I think me and my brother actually started riffing on it. We watched it multiple times simply cus we were to busy laughing the first time.


Edit: Hando... still dont remember the name of the queen.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
05.13.2014 , 02:52 PM | #52
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker View Post
Even in fantasy and in sci-fi they have established rules in the universe, things people can and can not do. It was out side the rules the univer set up.

And of course I did not avoid any of those episodes. When I heard how well regarded they were by the fan base I had to see if the execution was what every one talked about and if it was successful in doing what i feared it wasnt.... and for me it just wasnt. They barely glance over him being alive and the best moments for me were from the characters the show introduced NOT MAUL. I liked the criminal (drawing blank on names right now) and the loss of the Mando queen was very emotional, but every scene with maul for me was me waiting for him to grow a mustache to twirl to the point I think me and my brother actually started riffing on it. We watched it multiple times simply cus we were to busy laughing the first time.
Did you read the spoiler tag? It wasn't really necessary anyway, when I pointed to fantasy I didn't mean "anything goes" I mean that in a fantasy universe people can easily survive getting chopped in half - its called the Force.

And fantasy also means a world that gives you room to imagine, and doesn't explain everything.

But anyway, definitely a matter of opinion in seems.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
05.13.2014 , 02:56 PM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Did you read the spoiler tag? It wasn't really necessary anyway, when I pointed to fantasy I didn't mean "anything goes" I mean that in a fantasy universe people can easily survive getting chopped in half - its called the Force.

But anyway, definitely a matter of opinion in seems.
I did read the spoiler tag kind of, but that wasnt in the show. The show needs to stand on its own.

It wasnt just getting chopped in half, its getting chopped in half at the end of a particular movie having all sources before the TV show came out never mention him being alive in the clone wars (in fact all sources said he was dead at the time) and also falling several stories in a shocked stance bouncing from wall to wall in a location that has gravity and him being a mostly human like creature meaning like humans suceptible to death from long falls.


Its like saying Palpatine lived and still has his body after being thrown over the side by darth Vader. They fell equal distance if not Maul falling farther. The only possible explination is him being saved by some one before he hit the floor, but he wasnt so its BS.

Again Fantasy worlds only work if you stick to the rules you establish with in the fantasy world. Rules like Gravity and air. Yes you want some mystery to remain in the fantasy world but not outside plausibility of established rules.

Example when superman miraculously survived Doomsday it was because of healing from solar radiation something the universe had previously established as a thing in that universe.

The force is established as taking concentration to use (again in universe established law of universe) and we clearly see Maul as he is falling in a state of shock unable to control himself. Thus using the force in this state to grab air vent clear break of established in universe law of physics and powers. Thus break of believability thus poor execution and again show must stand alone and we didnt even get a semblance of this explination in the show to begin with. Had we... i might be more forgiving cus at least thats effort.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
05.13.2014 , 03:11 PM | #54
I disagree, a lengthy explanation or any technical explanation of how Maul had survived would have ruined the episode and the fantasy element of Maul's survival, just like midichlorians did little good for the Force.

So you arguing that the explanation giving for Maul's survival is impossible?

P.S. Sidious exploded lol.

EDIT: State of shock, that's it? Maybe the shock wore off after 2000 metres or so? I'd advise you read the book if you are that hung up on technicalities, I expect it explains it it detail. And of course the Force has already set a precedence of being able to make its users overcome their physical limitations, including things like shock.

And fantasy does require supension of disbelief, even if you think you know the laws of the universe, because ultimately with fantasy aspects like "the Force" you really really don't. Nothing is impossible with the Force, that's a "rule" too.

EDIT: But anyway I really don't want to get into this discussion, you think its implausible, I think its fantasy.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
05.13.2014 , 03:26 PM | #55
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I disagree, a lengthy explanation or any technical explanation of how Maul had survived would have ruined the episode and the fantasy element of Maul's survival, just like midichlorians did little good for the Force.

So you arguing that the explanation giving for Maul's survival is impossible?

EDIT: State of shock, that's it? Maybe the shock wore off after 2000 metres or so? I'd advise you read the book if you are that hung up on technicalities, I expect it explains it it detail. And of course the Force has already set a precedence of being able to make its users overcome their physical limitations, including things like shock.
again we are talking this wasnt in the show.... which needs to stand on its own. I might have forgiven it if they actually put this in the show.. fact is they didnt.

We have seen people Force users that would have been put in shock not go into shock but I have never heard of one recovering from being put into shock.

Your acceptance of implausable in fantasy settings is greater then mine. You saw him and went.... of course he is alive why not it works.... to which I saw him and went... how in the hell would that work every other time we ahve seen a vilian in this series go out in that manner they stay dead.

You're just more accepting then I am of BS shoe horning for the sake of fan service. That's all maul is fan service https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4hvUvBmoaA 2:05- 2:16 is the real explination. The problem of course with any fantasy world is the person seeing it has to be able to believe and or relate to it. To be sucked into the world enough that the little inconsistencies dont make a difference. If I am sitting here going.... Wait what? then it failed its job. The story wasnt interesting enough to make me not care about the inconsistancy. The world was not made tangible enough to suck me into it to make me forget that I was watching Fan service resurection.

For you it succeeded the story was good enough that you could over look a out of no where dead guy coming back to life and any or no explination was fine for you, but clearly any one that even takes a couple seconds to ask why is he alive? the show has failed to suck them in so they dont notice that.

So prefrence yes to a degree, but that is in execution. If its executed well enough no one will really notice or care, but if its executed poorly that is all they are going to focus on.


Edit: my tone may be mistaken here, I do not begrudge any one for likeing this. In fact part of me is jealous that you guys were sucked into it and i got hung up on stupid stuff rather then getting sucked in. Its a prefrence thing, but for both of us the deciding factor was execution. It didnt work for me, but I am not every one . I am just one abnoxcious guy on a computer that is vocal about what he doesnt like.

DarthDymond's Avatar


DarthDymond
05.13.2014 , 05:48 PM | #56
Main reason I was okay with Cyber-Maul: The Dark Jedi Maw - 15 years of bifurcated Dark Siders right there (although this moment is the first time I realized how close the names are ). Darth Sion is another example for why his survival in itself didn't strain my personal suspension of disbelief too badly.

That being said, I do agree that execution of Maul's survival could have been done a lot better in the show. Having Maul randomly show up on a completely different world with a massive Spider body with no explanation (again, at least in the show itself) was... less than ideal writing on the Clone Wars' part.

You don't have to give the full detailed account, particularly if you want to cover it in depth in another medium, like a tie-in novel or comic, but you do need to give enough that the viewer isn't left scratching their head and getting pulled out of the story as a result.

On balance I tend to give them a bye on that flaw though, since what they went on to do with the character was interesting enough for me to overlook the arc's weak beginning.
Given the choice whether to rule a corrupt and failing empire or to challenge the fates for another throw, a better throw, against one's destiny, what was a king to do?
But does one ever truly have a choice? One can only match, move by move, the machinations of fate, and thus defy the tyrannous stars.
~Kain

t-darko's Avatar


t-darko
05.14.2014 , 04:39 AM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthDymond View Post
...
On balance I tend to give them a bye on that flaw though, since what they went on to do with the character was interesting enough for me to overlook the arc's weak beginning.
Here's where you hit the hammer on the nail, as a reader, viewer, a fan, we're in the hands of those who own the story, own in a sense that they are in control. This control is, mostly for the hardcore fan, hard to accept, when it is a realization that they or we, as fans, don't own the story and its development, at least not in a way we would like. As it has been explained up and down in this thread SW is not flawless in it's story. But fact remains that not in any other on going story in books, television or on the big screen have fans, for better or worse influenced a story with such impact as the SW fans.

If one is to leave the perspective of a hardcore fan and look upon TCW through a filter of maturity, the story builds up excellent as a lore background to the events in ROTS. In fact the 4 last episodes of season 5 is on the verge of SW brilliance that is in the same bracket as EP 5 if not better. This more then compensate what began as an in write, in my opinion, the last 4 episodes of TCW season 5 is all that I hoped the prequels would be.

And again, we, as the hating loving SW fans, those who consider them self s to be the owners of the story, will never be pleased as there rarely is any consensus regarding the story development, just in their hatred in and voicing of the frustration of not being the owner of the story and its content.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
05.14.2014 , 04:45 AM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by t-darko View Post
Here's where you hit the hammer on the nail, as a reader, viewer, a fan, we're in the hands of those who own the story, own in a sense that they are in control. This control is, mostly for the hardcore fan, hard to accept, when it is a realization that they or we, as fans, don't own the story and its development, at least not in a way we would like. As it has been explained up and down in this thread SW is not flawless in it's story. But fact remains that not in any other on going story in books, television or on the big screen have fans, for better or worse influenced a story with such impact as the SW fans.

If one is to leave the perspective of a hardcore fan and look upon TCW through a filter of maturity, the story builds up excellent as a lore background to the events in ROTS. In fact the 4 last episodes of season 5 is on the verge of SW brilliance that is in the same bracket as EP 5 if not better. This more then compensate what began as an in write, in my opinion, the last 4 episodes of TCW season 5 is all that I hoped the prequels would be.

And again the hating loving SW fans, those who consider them self s to be the owners of the story, will never be pleased as there rarely is any consensus regarding the story development, just in their hatred in and voicing of the frustration of not being the owner of the story and its content.
For me some of the best of TCW was the Yoda arc at the very end.... such a perfect ending to a wonderful series over all, leaving it off on the hope that we all know that while the clone wars dont end well. The universe will be all right.

Edit: just looked up what season 5's ending was (i binge watched them all).... and ya that had to EASILY be ONE of the greatest and best arcs in star wars media. That line was one of those stories that I truly would call worthy of the title star wars .

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
05.14.2014 , 05:09 AM | #59
I prefer the Season 5 ending to the Season 6 ending... right now I'm watch it through so it will end with that one.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
05.14.2014 , 05:49 AM | #60
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I prefer the Season 5 ending to the Season 6 ending... right now I'm watch it through so it will end with that one.
I just find it so.... somber, and not as hopeful. Its like finishing episode 5 and not watching episode 6. The hope isnt as strong. I like when my stories to finish to leave with a BIG knowing everything is going to be all right. If its a sad ending, it needs to be bitter sweet, like everything is going to be all right but every one needs to split ways cus XYZ....

Like Full metal Alchemist or several others. It just to somber for me to leave it on that note. Yes its happy cus Ahsoka is fine, but the rest is to somber for me personally. (somber for an ending of course, but its not the ending so its perfect where it is to me.)