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Ahsoka Tano, why the hate?


Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
05.12.2014 , 08:18 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by t-darko View Post
Wasn't the answer to her not mentioned in ROTS simply the fact that (Spoilers) left the order?
On her role in the saga I recommend the following read;



** Source; Article
Hear, hear. Excellent article, thanks for sharing.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
05.12.2014 , 09:00 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by t-darko View Post
Wasn't the answer to her not mentioned in ROTS simply the fact that (Spoilers) left the order?
On her role in the saga I recommend the following read;



** Source; Article
Has any one heard of the term..... lazy writing. She wasnt mentioned in ROTS or ANY media before hand was because she wasnt invented until people wanted to milk more money. Thus they shoe horned her in and then swept it under the rug and pretended like she was their the whole time and they just didnt mention her cus it wasnt relavent.

People are making excuses for a bad writing team and concept team .

Like I said what they eventually do with her is good, because it went from lazy and bad concept to people picking up the peices and actually giving 2 cruds and making it work. Doesnt make the idea any less bad .

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
05.12.2014 , 09:04 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker View Post
Has any one heard of the term..... lazy writing. She wasnt mentioned in ROTS or ANY media before hand was because she wasnt invented until people wanted to milk more money. Thus they shoe horned her in and then swept it under the rug and pretended like she was their the whole time and they just didnt mention her cus it wasnt relavent.

People are making excuses for a bad writing team and concept team .

Like I said what they eventually do with her is good, because it went from lazy and bad concept to people picking up the peices and actually giving 2 cruds and making it work. Doesnt make the idea any less bad .
Forgive me but you've failed to actually provide a reason for why Ashoka's role in Season 1 and 2 was a bad one.

All you've said is that you think its pandering. Well that's your opinion, and no more meritorious than saying that Star Wars as a whole is just pandering towards sci-fi fans. Well duh.

Its called appealing to your audience, pretty important when writing stories.

EDIT: Every maybe thought that just maybe that what they eventually did with Ashoka was the plan all along?

cs_zoltan's Avatar


cs_zoltan
05.12.2014 , 09:34 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post

EDIT: Every maybe thought that just maybe that what they eventually did with Ashoka was the plan all along?
Ahm, what?
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StarSquirrel's Avatar


StarSquirrel
05.12.2014 , 09:38 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Forgive me but you've failed to actually provide a reason for why Ashoka's role in Season 1 and 2 was a bad one.

All you've said is that you think its pandering. Well that's your opinion, and no more meritorious than saying that Star Wars as a whole is just pandering towards sci-fi fans. Well duh.

Its called appealing to your audience, pretty important when writing stories.

EDIT: Every maybe thought that just maybe that what they eventually did with Ashoka was the plan all along?
Beni, she was absolutely horrible in seasons 1 and 2, read the freakin comments in this thread more carefully and you'll see more than one argument so don't give me the "I haven't seen a good argument" BS because you just don't WANT to see it.

I know you like her, and that is fine. But you can't just deny that others have valid reasons to dislike her because you don't agree with them.

For instance, in seasons 1 and 2 we see her use stupid nicknames, is extremely naive, her story doesn't fit naturally into the existing canon at the time, she doesn't have much character development (in seasons 1 and 2), she is constantly being an obnoxious brat, she is a child with a lightsaber and flying starships as well as leading soldiers into battle (something no legitimate soldier would tolerate). etc...

The list goes on so don't give me or Tune your "you've failed to actually provide a reason" line again Beni. Just open your eyes for half a second.

All that said. I HATED her in seasons 1 and 2 (one of the reasons aside from Hippe Mandos that I refused to watch TCW for a long time), and if that was Lucasart's plan all along then it should have been buried long ago and never seen the light of day. However, her later stories especially her personal arc was something of adequate redemption and so I like her well enough now.
"Being abandoned to my enemies, abandoned by one for whom I once had considerable affection and respect, was like being murdered…and surviving."
-Darth Caedus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
05.12.2014 , 10:01 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
Beni, she was absolutely horrible in seasons 1 and 2, read the freakin comments in this thread more carefully and you'll see more than one argument so don't give me the "I haven't seen a good argument" BS because you just don't WANT to see it.

I know you like her, and that is fine. But you can't just deny that others have valid reasons to dislike her because you don't agree with them.

For instance, in seasons 1 and 2 we see her use stupid nicknames, is extremely naive, her story doesn't fit naturally into the existing canon at the time, she doesn't have much character development (in seasons 1 and 2), she is constantly being an obnoxious brat, she is a child with a lightsaber and flying starships as well as leading soldiers into battle (something no legitimate soldier would tolerate). etc...

The list goes on so don't give me or Tune your "you've failed to actually provide a reason" line again Beni. Just open your eyes for half a second.

All that said. I HATED her in seasons 1 and 2 (one of the reasons aside from Hippe Mandos that I refused to watch TCW for a long time), and if that was Lucasart's plan all along then it should have been buried long ago and never seen the light of day. However, her later stories especially her personal arc was something of adequate redemption and so I like her well enough now.
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker View Post
So dont hate her, just the concept of her.
Tunewalker is approaching this subject from a different perspective here, not yours.

That said I understand people's reasons for disliking her, but I also feel this is simply a matter of perspective. I don't see it as bad writing at all, her initial character simply wasn't directed towards the older audience.

What I was asking of Tunewalker is examples say of her fitting clunkily into the story, or otherwise degrading its elements other than "I don't like her character" because as far as I'm aware she added a lot to each story she was in.

I mean really stupid nicknames, extremely naive? Are these not simply characteristics of a young individual who has yet to mature? A Padawan rough around the edges? Yet did she not have a fan following from the start?

I for one was not a massive fan, but I didn't dislike her, but then became one as she developed. But hate is a very strong word, and its certainly not what I felt, and certainly not one I'd apply to a character who simply didn't appeal to my tastes. And re-watching early episodes I don't find her annoying at all, in fact I enjoy her character.

But I think its beyond stupid, apologies, to think that it wasn't always the plan all along to have Ashoka grow and develop from the young, cocky etc. that we see in the earlier episodes into something more mature and developed.

I mean that's basic storytelling right there, see Luke Skywalker for details.

P.S. I think a lot of the undeserved hatred for TCW is because its not a dark and gritty adult TV show. I think its time that you opened your eyes and realised that Lucasarts had a duty to appeal to everyone, not just your demographic.

StarSquirrel's Avatar


StarSquirrel
05.12.2014 , 10:35 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post

But I think its beyond stupid, apologies, to think that it wasn't always the plan all along to have Ashoka grow and develop from the young, cocky etc. that we see in the earlier episodes into something more mature and developed.

I mean that's basic storytelling right there, see Luke Skywalker for details.

P.S. I think a lot of the undeserved hatred for TCW is because its not a dark and gritty adult TV show. I think its time that you opened your eyes and realised that Lucasarts had a duty to appeal to everyone, not just your demographic.
No I understand the intent to have her grow as a person, but her often flippant behavior and some of the other qualities I mentioned still make her a poor character even considering her later development. I like her more developed self, and had she been less child-like at the start I might have been more impressed.

Luke is a good example Beni, and I never said she should have been her season 5 self from the get-go. But many of her more obnoxious traits could have been tempered and they could have brought her in as a tad bit older.

P.S. I couldn't give a damn about it being "dark and gritty". I'd just rather it be quality entertainment. As it was, they marketed heavily to kids in the first two seasons with simple stories, very cartoonish animation, almost stereotypical characters, overdone themes, and constant unimaginative repartee.

I think it is time you opened your eyes and realized that they can market to that wider audience better than they did, as evidenced quite well by seasons 3-6.

If they were appealing to my demographic btw, they'd be making it a Michael Bay explosion ridden-shoot'em-up or a cheesy horror flick and I'm not big on either of those thanks.
"Being abandoned to my enemies, abandoned by one for whom I once had considerable affection and respect, was like being murdered…and surviving."
-Darth Caedus

DarthDymond's Avatar


DarthDymond
05.12.2014 , 10:54 AM | #18
I agree that Ahsoka's character growth/arc was handled fine over the course of the series, but I can sympathize with people who were really put off by the "Suddenly, a Wild [Anakin's Padawan] Appears!" nature of her inclusion in the overall mythos.

But even if the decision to write in a Padawan for Anakin that we've just somehow never heard of before is an instance of bad writing, it also a very Star Wars thing to do - let's face it, shoe-horning in random plot elements is almost as common as someone saying "I have a bad feeling about this" throughout the series.

"Luke and Leia's mother dies immediately after giving birth!"
"Wait, the one and only thing we know about her from the original series is that Leia remembers her..."
"Have baby Leia's eyes be open!"
"That's not how..."
"No it's cool, Leia has the Force so it'll work!"

"Leia is Luke's sister!"
"But we just spent two movies setting up a love triangle..."
"She loved him as a brother all along because 'somehow she always knew'!"
"She kissed him full on the mouth in Empire..."

"Darth Vader is Luke's father!"

"But Obi-Wan specifically said Vader 'betrayed and murdered' Luke's father..."
"That's true from a certain point of view"
"That was an oddly specific wording choice if he was trying to be cagey about what really happened"

"Anakin built C-3PO when he was like 9 years old!"
"What? I don't even..."
"It's okay, they'll wipe 3PO's memory at the very end of the last prequel!"
"Then what is the point of including it at all?!?"

Since they did make the call to include a Padawan, I am just happy how it played out in the end, with the resolution of her arc giving one more reason for Anakin to harbor ill will towards the Jedi. At least she was a wedged-in plot point that you can interpret as actually adding something to the motivations and decisions of the characters, and Anakin's fall was one area that really needed some shoring up in RotS.

Basically, I think of Ahsoka as a good "No, I am your father" twist, rather than a bad "I built a droid, wanna see?" twist.
Given the choice whether to rule a corrupt and failing empire or to challenge the fates for another throw, a better throw, against one's destiny, what was a king to do?
But does one ever truly have a choice? One can only match, move by move, the machinations of fate, and thus defy the tyrannous stars.
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Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
05.12.2014 , 11:14 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
No I understand the intent to have her grow as a person, but her often flippant behavior and some of the other qualities I mentioned still make her a poor character even considering her later development. I like her more developed self, and had she been less child-like at the start I might have been more impressed.

Luke is a good example Beni, and I never said she should have been her season 5 self from the get-go. But many of her more obnoxious traits could have been tempered and they could have brought her in as a tad bit older.

P.S. I couldn't give a damn about it being "dark and gritty". I'd just rather it be quality entertainment. As it was, they marketed heavily to kids in the first two seasons with simple stories, very cartoonish animation, almost stereotypical characters, overdone themes, and constant unimaginative repartee.

I think it is time you opened your eyes and realized that they can market to that wider audience better than they did, as evidenced quite well by seasons 3-6.

If they were appealing to my demographic btw, they'd be making it a Michael Bay explosion ridden-shoot'em-up or a cheesy horror flick and I'm not big on either of those thanks.
Again their is a distinct difference between a poor character and a character you dislike. You disliked her because she was young, and grew to like her as she matured as a person. That's fine and understandable but doesn't make her a poor character. Again I point to the fan following she had from the start. I definitely feel that if she had been less child like at the start her development would have been thrown amuk, after all she was a child, that was the whole point.

Luke is a good example, funnily enough lots of people didn't much like him in ANH, and honestly he did start of a tad whiny, but I enjoyed seeing is character develop and didn't resent him for being portrayed as a flawed individual.

I also disagree that Season 1-2 should have been more like 3-6. TCW set a tone, like many other stories have, of starting off "light" and slowly building up to become more dramatic, darker and more intense, the former complementing the latter and leading to the show appealing to all audiences. I point to the Harry Potter movies/books for an example. Loved by children and adults alike. Why? Because they strike a medium between the two demographics, The Philosopher's Stone is a kids novel and a kids film, the Deathly Hallows is not. But because the kids have been inducted in by the initial books, they can enjoy the gravitas of the finale, while having appropriately dark undertones in the initial films when called for. And likewise the adult audience can appreciate the steady build up, something which wouldn't have worked and IMO made the story markedly worse if the initial films had been as dark as the latter.

TCW for me is the same, it started off light to draw in the younger audience, while adding flavour with dark episodes like Lair of Grievous, Hostage Crisis, Cloak of Darkness, the Bane and Boba arcs etc. and as we've been told this is the same direction that Rebels is going to take, because its tried and proven.

I also think its important in terms of character, especially Ashoka, it was important for Ashoka to develop into a more mature character before they started throwing mature situations at her which as a kid just wouldn't have worked.

Honestly though I feel you are exaggerating, I fail to see the over-abundance of "very" cartoonish animation (because lol it changed so much) stereotypical characters (I'll give you Dr Virus Dude) simple stories and overdone themes, at least in comparison to latter seasons and Star Wars as a whole.

I assume you have watched the initial seasons and are familiar with what episodes they are comprised of... Seems like a simply case of "don't like kids shows" to me as opposed to bad storytelling, which it simply is not.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
05.12.2014 , 11:20 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthDymond View Post
I agree that Ahsoka's character growth/arc was handled fine over the course of the series, but I can sympathize with people who were really put off by the "Suddenly, a Wild [Anakin's Padawan] Appears!" nature of her inclusion in the overall mythos.

But even if the decision to write in a Padawan for Anakin that we've just somehow never heard of before is an instance of bad writing, it also a very Star Wars thing to do - let's face it, shoe-horning in random plot elements is almost as common as someone saying "I have a bad feeling about this" throughout the series.

"Luke and Leia's mother dies immediately after giving birth!"
"Wait, the one and only thing we know about her from the original series is that Leia remembers her..."
"Have baby Leia's eyes be open!"
"That's not how..."
"No it's cool, Leia has the Force so it'll work!"

"Leia is Luke's sister!"
"But we just spent two movies setting up a love triangle..."
"She loved him as a brother all along because 'somehow she always knew'!"
"She kissed him full on the mouth in Empire..."

"Darth Vader is Luke's father!"

"But Obi-Wan specifically said Vader 'betrayed and murdered' Luke's father..."
"That's true from a certain point of view"
"That was an oddly specific wording choice if he was trying to be cagey about what really happened"

"Anakin built C-3PO when he was like 9 years old!"
"What? I don't even..."
"It's okay, they'll wipe 3PO's memory at the very end of the last prequel!"
"Then what is the point of including it at all?!?"

Since they did make the call to include a Padawan, I am just happy how it played out in the end, with the resolution of her arc giving one more reason for Anakin to harbor ill will towards the Jedi. At least she was a wedged-in plot point that you can interpret as actually adding something to the motivations and decisions of the characters, and Anakin's fall was one area that really needed some shoring up in RotS.

Basically, I think of Ahsoka as a good "No, I am your father" twist, rather than a bad "I built a droid, wanna see?" twist.
That made be laugh.

You forgot one though.