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ETA on Advanced Class change?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
ETA on Advanced Class change?

Vhaegrant's Avatar


Vhaegrant
05.09.2014 , 05:21 PM | #4741
Quote: Originally Posted by LordArtemis View Post
I could comment to this, but only from my personal perspective. I speak only for me.
Duly noted

Quote: Originally Posted by LordArtemis View Post
I want my choice to be meaningful. My role in the game world is important to me...I want to feel heroic, powerful, and really LIVE my role choice. It is my profession, my ultimate skill set...it defines me.
Your role (meleeDPS/ rangedDPS/ Tank/ Heal) is ultimately defined by your specialisation. In game mechanics the defining feature of Advanced Class is to isolate base healing and tanking abilities, and to reduce role selection to a selection of 3.

Quote: Originally Posted by LordArtemis View Post
Allowing a change of that role would trivialize the choice for me. It would not longer as special or meaningful to me as it once was.
But you can already change that role. In fact, if you are a subscriber, have purchased field respecialisation, and play an Advanced Class limited to roles that use the same gear (for example Sorcerer, rangedDPS <-> Heal), you can change your role at no cost, at nearly any time (not in WZs if I recall), and without having to swap out gear (if you are a perfectionist you might, but accuracy, power, surge, crit all get the job done for these two)

Quote: Originally Posted by LordArtemis View Post
I will not be happy if this is implemented, but naturally I will not oppose something that the majority wants....if this is what the majority wants I will live with it. But if someone asks my opinion I give it.
Opinion noted

[edit: I should clarify, I'm not trying to shoot you down on a personal level, I really want to understand the argument from both sides.
For me the meaning in character comes from the root class, the appearance taken and the decisions made (LS/DS) as they level. The abilities are merely tools to get the job done.]

Vhaegrant's Avatar


Vhaegrant
05.09.2014 , 05:33 PM | #4742
Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
Having dual spec or tri spec would increase peoples options. Advanced class swapping is more like saying hey I am bored with my mage and now I want a warlock. Advanced classes aren't even close to resembling one another in some cases. However this is just an option to change the class of your character for a cost and getting a whole new class without ever learning the difference between it and the other AC.
And yet they share the same class story, the same appearance customisations, the same companions, the same ship, the same class buff, the same heroic moment unlock, around half their abilities and one specialisation tree. No they are not similar in any way shape or form
Advanced Class seperates out some abilities you would not want to be on the same character at the same time (self heals and ability to tank), and allows the PR machine to talk up the numbers a bit. But, behind the scenes at the level of design they are a subset of class, just a second stage of specialisation.

Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
also it is not about getting the last word or about being right it's about discussing an idea that was mentioned 18 months ago one time for a brief moment in an interview on another site. Since then the only people interested in this particular feature are the vocal minority in this thread. They need to accept the fact that the person who gave the interview no longer gives a rat's behind about this particular feature otherwise he would have stepped in here in the last 237 pages and said something.
I really don't think you're qualified to speak on Damion Schubert's behalf, and I'm sure as Lead system designer he has far more to think about than a minor squabble between forumites. As to vocal minority, I think the for and against are both very vocal and also in the minority on this feature.

Superman_AZ's Avatar


Superman_AZ
05.09.2014 , 05:45 PM | #4743
Quote: Originally Posted by Vhaegrant View Post
I really don't think you're qualified to speak on Damion Schubert's behalf
I am NOT trying to speak on his behalf although it appears you are judging from your take on his conversation 18 months ago and no word on the matter since then. So until he steps in here and tells me I'm wrong and you're right I can assume anything I like.
"Be yourself, no one can ever tell you you're doing it wrong." ~ James Leo Herlihy

LordArtemis's Avatar


LordArtemis
05.09.2014 , 05:50 PM | #4744
Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
I am NOT trying to speak on his behalf although it appears you are judging from your take on his conversation 18 months ago and no word on the matter since then. So until he steps in here and tells me I'm wrong and you're right I can assume anything I like.
If you wish for your opinion to have weight in the discussion IMO it is best to temper your passion to prevent it from saturating your opinions with arrogance.

Point to facts instead of creating them, stand in the middle and try to point out that anything other than fact-point is opinion and you will find folks will take what you say to heart more often than not.

Naturally you have every right to post in any manner you wish that does not break forum rules. You don't need my approval, recognition or permission.

Vhaegrant's Avatar


Vhaegrant
05.09.2014 , 05:58 PM | #4745
Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
I am NOT trying to speak on his behalf although it appears you are judging from your take on his conversation 18 months ago and no word on the matter since then. So until he steps in here and tells me I'm wrong and you're right I can assume anything I like.
I'm just quoting what a Dev said, their tendency not to comment on issues they have already clarified, and that Named devs seldom comment on threads like this. We might get attention from a moderator, but that's mainly to keep things civil

Feel free to assume though, I'm sure there's an old saying about that somewhere

Superman_AZ's Avatar


Superman_AZ
05.09.2014 , 07:42 PM | #4746
Quote: Originally Posted by LordArtemis View Post
Point to facts instead of creating them, stand in the middle and try to point out that anything other than fact-point is opinion and you will find folks will take what you say to heart more often than not.
Fair enough, here are the facts:

Quote:
On Nov 16, 2012, Damion Schubert spoke about Advanced class swapping in an interview:
http://dulfy.net/2012/11/16/swtor-f2...mion-schubert/
Quote:
On Dec 7, 2011, Steven Reid answered questions related to AC swapping, in a similar fashion:
http://r2-db.com/questions/200/can-y...advanced-class

Ironically, the source thread has since been deleted, but the screen capture still exists.
Quote:
Another interesting fact is there have only been 47 threads, out of 147k asking for such a feature. None of those threads ever received an answer from BW.

http://www.swtor.com/community/searc...archid=4891227
Quote:
http://www.swtor.com/blog/community-qa-feb-10th-2012

Daniel Erickson: We have no plans for switching advanced classes - which we see as fundamentally different class designs- but dual spec is in the works and coming soon.
You'll note the bolded part above.

Quote:
In another thread, BW opened a SECOND thread on the topic and never once commented in either thread:
Thread 2: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=178253
Thread 1: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=173707
Quote:
Even Wikianswers acknowledges the permanency of your initial coice

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_can_yo...ublic?#slide=2
That one really was just to lighten the mood.

Quote:
http://www.guardianhq.com/swtor/step...***-switching/

“Folks, please don’t overreact about the possibility of something happening in the future.

Advanced Class switching (or re-speccing, take your pick) was, at one point, potentially going to go into the game. Right now, it’s not in the game. It could potentially be added after launch. Like, frankly, anything else. To quote Georg “we reserve the right to change our minds based on feedback and testing”.

This thread is feedback. It’ll be taken into account by the developers, along with the usual metrics we look at. I’ll say this much – any sort of Advanced Class changing is not under discussion for launch, or even right after launch.

Absolutely anything in the game is potentially open to change in the future. That’s part of what an MMO is about. Your feedback on those changes is absolutely welcome, but just because we say that yes, something may potentially happen in the future… that doesn’t make it a certainty.”
So there you have it… We’ll most likely be seeing some form of Advanced Class switching post-launch. Though it isn’t guaranteed. I don’t think it’s too surprising for BioWare to admit it’s a possibility at some point post-launch – as anything can be changed to meet the demands of the game as it continues to mature.

Advanced Class switching certainly seems to be a feature for a more developed game, and it’s certainly something that I see them adding at some point in the future. I do think that it should not be ‘easy’, and switching should involve some cost and effort for the player. How do you feel about Advanced Class switching? Do you think it’s something that is necessary, and if included at all – should it be costly or as easy as the press of a button?

Let us know your thoughts!
After such a posting, the thread was eventually deleted as the lack of interest was also apparent in the responses on the site which retained the original quote.

Quote:
http://www.askajedi.com/2011/07/21/s...ware-base-q-a/

"Advanced Class change is in the game. 1st swap is cheap. After that it gets expensive"
Apparently, AC change made it all the way into the production line and was DROPPED at the last minute.

Quote:
April 26, 2011
http://www.swtor-fever.com/swtor-dis...pecs-in-swtor/

In another interview with TOR designer Georg Zoeller:

"Correct. The ability to respec your skill point distribution is still in the game.

Summary, since this is a confusing topic:

You can change your skill point distribution by paying credits at a vendor on your capital world. That has not changed.

You may or may not be able to change your Advanced Class, we haven’t decided on this one yet. If you can, the cost would be significant. That has not changed.

There is currently no plan to add dual spec (the ability to swap almost instantly between two skill point configurations) for launch. At this point, it seems not necessary for us, but we’re not opposed to add it at a later point / patch should we feel that the game would benefit from it.

Hope that helps.
Notice how in April, they say Maybe, in July they say yes, and then November they say "maybe later". It is obvious from the number of times the topic has been discussed, and the number of named BW staff interviews, that there was intent to add it to the game. So much, in fact, one interview actually said it was IN for launch, and later removed as a "maybe".

After 3 years, a half dozen interviews, and less than 50 thread topics on the subject, it would seem they have received their feedback. In most of the other threads, it was not a majority of rousing endorsements. I think this topic died a long time ago, and BW just doesn't want to step in and confess it. Do not take my word for it. Please look into all 47 threads and see how many times they responded. Even on a thread that hit level cap way back when, they even opened up a 2nd thread for it, and never once confirmed or denied any of it.
"Be yourself, no one can ever tell you you're doing it wrong." ~ James Leo Herlihy

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
05.09.2014 , 07:46 PM | #4747
@Superman_AZ, that was excellent work finding all of those quotes and bringing them together in one post.

Kudos for taking the extra time to do that.

Superman_AZ's Avatar


Superman_AZ
05.09.2014 , 07:51 PM | #4748
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
@Superman_AZ, that was excellent work finding all of those quotes and bringing them together in one post.

Kudos for taking the extra time to do that.
Thank you. I wanted to be taken seriously, and I have LordArtemis to thank for the suggestion. Also, I love doing research.
"Be yourself, no one can ever tell you you're doing it wrong." ~ James Leo Herlihy

ekwalizer's Avatar


ekwalizer
05.10.2014 , 01:45 AM | #4749
Quote: Originally Posted by Vhaegrant View Post
My justification is largely based on the fact that Damion Schubert is the lead system designer for SWTOR with a cv filled with MMO experience. Whereas Daniel Erickson was the lead writer, wonderful writer that he may be the presentation given by DS at the GDC ( http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016553...tain-Using-MMO )suggests the difficulties writers have to overcome when it comes to integrating their ideas into a game. Especially if they've never been near an MMO before.
Lord Artemis has far better recollection about DE's deviations from his own definition of what class and advanced class was meant to be.
Both quotes were in answer to a direct question about AC swapping. Given the chronological time frame, more recent is normally considered more relevant.

Is that not exactly the same as you're using them?
Despite the fact the Damion Schubert quote is more recent, factors in the change from a subscription only model to hybrid, and is actually made by someone still working on the game. Sure, I guess both quotes could be seen as about as relevant as each other
What you aren't taking into account from the DS quote is:
a.) it was 18 months ago - a lot can happen in 18 months. 18 month, while "more recently" is not relevant.
b.) the very next sentence of the quote pertained to species change. Species change was added to the game within a few months of that quote. Species change wasn't even part of the question asked.
c.) the quote from DS was given in an interview about the game becoming F2P.
Quote:
SWTOR F2P & Future content interview with Damion Schubert
I understand your point on the Devs remaining silent on this feature, I just don't see that as the truth. These devs are a lot more forthcoming with information than most games. We knew about Makeb months in advance, we knew about GSF months in advance, we know about Strongholds months in advance.

As I said before, there have been 2 Digital Expansions since that quote was made. Species change is a reality but AC respec is not. That should be your first indicator that it probably will not become a reality. If it could be done, they have had time to do it and it would be here by now.

And let's be honest, we don't know whether or not DS said something he shouldn't have said in the first place - which explains why it is never repeated in any interview, road map, pod cast, live cast, blog since.

Quite simply put, there is not a single shred of evidence that this item is even still on the Wall of Crazy. If it is, then it is obviously lower priority than reskinning what was ugly armor sets in the first place (ie putting lipstick on a pig).

I'm not completely against AC Respec. If it became a reality, I would in fact use it on my Mara and Sentinel. What I am diametrically opposed to, however, is any path to multiple AC respec. Which is to say you should only be allowed to change once per character. Ultimately, I just don't see this as an issue that warrants the amount of dev time it would take to do it properly.

Vhaegrant's Avatar


Vhaegrant
05.10.2014 , 04:28 AM | #4750
Quote: Originally Posted by ekwalizer View Post
What you aren't taking into account from the DS quote is:
a.) it was 18 months ago - a lot can happen in 18 months. 18 month, while "more recently" is not relevant.
A lot certainly can happen in 18 months, an increase in level cap with 'Rise of the Hutt Cartel', the addition of an off rails team PVP space shooter, numerous cartel packs, return of the Rakghoul, a bounty event, several new dailies areas (Makeb, CZ-198 and Oricon) and the start of a new story chain in Forged Alliances. You make it sound like all Bioware Austin have been doing is twiddling their thumbs deciding whether they should or should not implement AC swap.I don't deny that it was some time ago, my point is that it was the last direct comment made on the subject by a dev that still works on the game.
b.) the very next sentence of the quote pertained to species change. Species change was added to the game within
a few months of that quote. Species change wasn't even part of the question asked.
Sequence in a reply does not denote roll out order. Species change was added as they had a product that pretty much required it (the Cathar).
c.) the quote from DS was given in an interview about the game becoming F2P.
And the game is still F2P. Not exactly sure how I overlooked this one?

I understand your point on the Devs remaining silent on this feature, I just don't see that as the truth. These devs are a lot more forthcoming with information than most games. We knew about Makeb months in advance, we knew about GSF months in advance, we know about Strongholds months in advance.
These are all large additions to the game that would have been placed in the roadmap and have considerable work to be done before release. I would imagine a good deal of information release is done as damage limitation from stuff that gets datamined, to try and limit expectations, and in the case of Player Housing to try and limit player drift towards other releases such as Wildstar.

As I said before, there have been 2 Digital Expansions since that quote was made. Species change is a reality but AC respec is not. That should be your first indicator that it probably will not become a reality. If it could be done, they have had time to do it and it would be here by now.
And once again, Species change had a product that would drive its uptake with the release of the Cathar.

And let's be honest, we don't know whether or not DS said something he shouldn't have said in the first place - which explains why it is never repeated in any interview, road map, pod cast, live cast, blog since.
I'm not sure if he's ever been asked the question directly again, I've watched quite a few of the Q&A sessions and devs don't tend to talk about stuff they've not been asked, it's considered bad form. However, I would love for any one going to the Vancouver Cantina event in the next week to put forward the question at that Q&A session You know, if you're going and just happen to be reading this question

Quite simply put, there is not a single shred of evidence that this item is even still on the Wall of Crazy. If it is, then it is obviously lower priority than reskinning what was ugly armor sets in the first place (ie putting lipstick on a pig).
There's no evidence that anything's on the wall of crazy unless you work in Bioware Austin. Features tend to get rolled out with regards to an internal roadmap, that roadmap is probably built on a framework of what development time they have and what challenges the game may face from competition. The uptake for AC swap is probably too low to consider rolling it out as a stand alone feature, however, should SWTOR classes eventually gain new ACs I see the potential uptake increased.
There are various teams that work on various aspects of the game.


I'm not completely against AC Respec. If it became a reality, I would in fact use it on my Mara and Sentinel. What I am diametrically opposed to, however, is any path to multiple AC respec. Which is to say you should only be allowed to change once per character. Ultimately, I just don't see this as an issue that warrants the amount of dev time it would take to do it properly.
So in other words your idea of how to do it properly is to make it so restrictive as to make it unappealing and place in a one shot limitation that would result in far more calls to customer service than I hate to imagine.
It will be interesting to see in the long term whether the AC feature is introduced over the lifespan of SWTOR. I find it slightly amusing that there is such a rabid defence of the status quo when the feature wouldn't impact on ability balance.

I seem to recall voicing one of the few hard based cons of AC swapping. That it would take away from development resources.

I'll add another cause I try to see both sides of an argument and focus on the practical issues.
If AC swapping was allowed as you level, depending at which point you chose to swap a new player could potentially face a bill for new abilities that they couldn't cover. Leaving them with a lengthy period of grinding for credits with an underpowered character.