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ETA on Advanced Class change?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
ETA on Advanced Class change?

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
05.09.2014 , 04:11 PM | #4731
I find myself drawn to post in this thread again. LordArtemis, your attempts to calm the waters on this discussion have always impressed me.

While it is completely understandable to try and relate the way classes are treated in TOR to other games, I think that it will ultimately fall down, because what is being done in this game is different.

Base Class
Advanced Class
Spec

Were done a particular way in this game. There are similarities to other games, but they are not the same. For examples:

1. When you see a list of people on fleet, 99% of the time you see advanced class.
2. But when you unlock a legacy chapter 2 boost, it only applies to the base class.

Sometimes the Base Class is like a "Class" in other games, and sometimes an Advanced Class is like a "Class" in other games. Trying to argue "Base Class is your Class" and "Advanced Class is your Class" is ultimately pointless. Because the unmodified word "Class" only applies to other games.

I think it's unlikely that we'll see an AC respec and I don't think it would be particularly good for the game. But then again, I didn't think we'd see PvE bolster either, yet go read the 2.8 PTS patch notes.

But arguing about whether the Advanced Class is a class or the Base Class is a class? That seems a largely pointless part of the AC respec argument.

NEITHER are a "class".

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
05.09.2014 , 04:13 PM | #4732
Quote: Originally Posted by LordArtemis View Post
Ratajack, again, you make this claim but the very statement made by DE was contradicted...by DE....both 2 months prior and 6 months after he made them. Proof was posted in this thread.

He first said they were "roles".....then "fundamentally different class designs"....then "specializations within your class". He even said "they were not designed to be classes in the classic sense" when asked why they listed only 8 classes on the page though he very clearly indicated that "different class designs" was the design intent 7 months prior.

He was giving his opinion. Just like the dev 18 months ago. That is all we have gotten is opinion it seems.
My only point in that post was that those statements have as much (or as little) validity as the one from well over a year ago.

Vhaegrant's Avatar


Vhaegrant
05.09.2014 , 04:19 PM | #4733
Quote: Originally Posted by Superman_AZ View Post
I did say that, and then people wanted to argue that it WOULD. So, I indulged in the discussion, only to find out people are clinging to this notion like a passenger to a Titanic life-raft, only to find out the last (and ONLY) word on it was 18 months ago, and was not even made here on this site. I am all for discussing a possible feature, but when you fight tooth and nail to argue a standpoint that pretty much DIED 18 months ago, I have to wonder why you don't just get out more. Fighting for something mentioned several times, or even recently (a month or so ago) is one thing, but at this point it's really just kinda sad.
So it's just needing to have the last say on the matter

The desire to see a feature implemented shouldn't have a sell by date. I'm more interested in the merits of why people seem to argue against a feature that only increases player choices. I'm sure if I looked in the threads there are plenty of older requests still being recycled that were never dignified in the first place by a developer comment. Dulfy is probably the best source for SWTOR info away from the official site.

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
05.09.2014 , 04:23 PM | #4734
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
I find myself drawn to post in this thread again. LordArtemis, your attempts to calm the waters on this discussion have always impressed me.

While it is completely understandable to try and relate the way classes are treated in TOR to other games, I think that it will ultimately fall down, because what is being done in this game is different.

Base Class
Advanced Class
Spec

Were done a particular way in this game. There are similarities to other games, but they are not the same. For examples:

1. When you see a list of people on fleet, 99% of the time you see advanced class.
2. But when you unlock a legacy chapter 2 boost, it only applies to the base class.

Sometimes the Base Class is like a "Class" in other games, and sometimes an Advanced Class is like a "Class" in other games. Trying to argue "Base Class is your Class" and "Advanced Class is your Class" is ultimately pointless. Because the unmodified word "Class" only applies to other games.

I think it's unlikely that we'll see an AC respec and I don't think it would be particularly good for the game. But then again, I didn't think we'd see PvE bolster either, yet go read the 2.8 PTS patch notes.

But arguing about whether the Advanced Class is a class or the Base Class is a class? That seems a largely pointless part of the AC respec argument.

NEITHER are a "class".
When you see a list of people on the fleet you see their CLASS. 99% of the time that CLASS happens to be one of the various AC's.

When you unlock the chapter 2 buff, the same buff is unlocked for both AC's, true. This is,IMO only, similar to not having to have 16 different story lines. The devs were able to create 4 buffs that do not overlap and mirror them, rather than having to create 8 buffs per faction and either water those buffs down, possibly risk overlapping buffs or even possibly making some buffs more powerful than others.


I have said before, that it would have been much clearer if they had designed it so that:

Race
Gender
Story
Class
Customization

Enter world

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
05.09.2014 , 04:32 PM | #4735
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
The devs were able to create 4 buffs that do not overlap and mirror them, rather than having to create 8 buffs per faction and either water those buffs down, possibly risk overlapping buffs or even possibly making some buffs more powerful than others.
OR, (and this is the point I'm trying to make), they weren't trying to make 8 classes, and they weren't trying to make 16 classes, they were trying to do something different. Which is 8 base classes each with 2 advanced classes.

It is okay that this is different. It's not necessary to make either of these to things the same as a class in other games.

The arguments against AC respec are still valid without dwelling on "what is a class".

Vhaegrant's Avatar


Vhaegrant
05.09.2014 , 04:42 PM | #4736
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
I'm curious as to your justification for holding that statement in such high regard as "the last word from the devs" on class changing, but want to completely dismiss the statements made by the devs regarding AC's being fundamentally DIFFERENT CLASSES and being treated as FULL CLASSES in and of themselves. Those statements have not been contradicted since they were made, making them the "last word from the devs" regarding AC's being different classes.
My justification is largely based on the fact that Damion Schubert is the lead system designer for SWTOR with a cv filled with MMO experience. Whereas Daniel Erickson was the lead writer, wonderful writer that he may be the presentation given by DS at the GDC ( http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016553...tain-Using-MMO )suggests the difficulties writers have to overcome when it comes to integrating their ideas into a game. Especially if they've never been near an MMO before.
Lord Artemis has far better recollection about DE's deviations from his own definition of what class and advanced class was meant to be.
Both quotes were in answer to a direct question about AC swapping. Given the chronological time frame, more recent is normally considered more relevant.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
It seems to me that the biggest difference is that the former fits in with your desire to see class changes implemented and the latter does not.
Is that not exactly the same as you're using them?
Despite the fact the Damion Schubert quote is more recent, factors in the change from a subscription only model to hybrid, and is actually made by someone still working on the game. Sure, I guess both quotes could be seen as about as relevant as each other

LordArtemis's Avatar


LordArtemis
05.09.2014 , 05:01 PM | #4737
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
My only point in that post was that those statements have as much (or as little) validity as the one from well over a year ago.
Fair enough. I absolutely agree, and naturally I also agree with you that AC is a class...but my reason may be different.

To me it feels like a class. It feels like a new unique class to be more exact.

The flaw is in the design. Instead of having, say, you choose your AC at character creation (which they could have done, since both ACs for a particular class have the same base abilities and story) they decided to push it to level 10.

IMO this was the part of the design that confused the issue the most. To my knowledge there isnt a single game on the market today that starts you at level 10 when creating a new character, and all games have you choose your class OR role at creation. Many games have advanced roles or specializations you take on later (like holy or shadow priest) or the class transforms into something new (like in many original FF games, where you could become a completely new class).

Very few if any stack a class inside a class, unless that class is a crafting class.

As pointed out before, the issue may be how classes are defined in this game, or rather the lack of definition. Perhaps Bioware did not understand just how important our role in the universe would be to us.

I think it was something like "lets add more variety to the classes since we cant afford more base storylines, and we will call them advanced classes".

Like many of the decisions made during the design of this game little to no thought was given to the repercussions. They simply did not understand the most basic tenements of MMO design IMO.

LordArtemis's Avatar


LordArtemis
05.09.2014 , 05:05 PM | #4738
Quote: Originally Posted by Vhaegrant View Post
I'm more interested in the merits of why people seem to argue against a feature that only increases player choices.
I could comment to this, but only from my personal perspective. I speak only for me.

I want my choice to be meaningful. My role in the game world is important to me...I want to feel heroic, powerful, and really LIVE my role choice. It is my profession, my ultimate skill set...it defines me.

Allowing a change of that role would trivialize the choice for me. It would not longer as special or meaningful to me as it once was.

I will not be happy if this is implemented, but naturally I will not oppose something that the majority wants....if this is what the majority wants I will live with it. But if someone asks my opinion I give it.

Superman_AZ's Avatar


Superman_AZ
05.09.2014 , 05:09 PM | #4739
Quote: Originally Posted by Vhaegrant View Post
So it's just needing to have the last say on the matter

The desire to see a feature implemented shouldn't have a sell by date. I'm more interested in the merits of why people seem to argue against a feature that only increases player choices. I'm sure if I looked in the threads there are plenty of older requests still being recycled that were never dignified in the first place by a developer comment. Dulfy is probably the best source for SWTOR info away from the official site.
Having dual spec or tri spec would increase peoples options. Advanced class swapping is more like saying hey I am bored with my mage and now I want a warlock. Advanced classes aren't even close to resembling one another in some cases. However this is just an option to change the class of your character for a cost and getting a whole new class without ever learning the difference between it and the other AC.

also it is not about getting the last word or about being right it's about discussing an idea that was mentioned 18 months ago one time for a brief moment in an interview on another site. Since then the only people interested in this particular feature are the vocal minority in this thread. They need to accept the fact that the person who gave the interview no longer gives a rat's behind about this particular feature otherwise he would have stepped in here in the last 237 pages and said something.
"Be yourself, no one can ever tell you you're doing it wrong." ~ James Leo Herlihy

LordArtemis's Avatar


LordArtemis
05.09.2014 , 05:09 PM | #4740
I could find them all, but here are some of the more confusing ones...most folks are familiar with the recent "likely to happen" and the less recent "fundamentally different class designs", so those are not included.

DEs views on class and advanced class from interviews, events and blog posts.

Each of the advanced classes is a full, flexible class with various trees that allow specialization.

but he also said this...

Inquisitor is your class, that is the class you have for the entire storyline. Your advanced class offers you a specialized set of ability trees and determines the weapon you use.


and this....

At one time we wanted 16 classes to provide better balance in combat, but in the end the game was designed with only 8 classes to choose from.


Not to mention comments like....

....every class has their own story
...but your class is defined by your individual story
...8 class choices that define your game experience


Confusing. It seems the conversation he was having determined how HE viewed ACs...he was rather loosy goosy about it, they all were IMO.

This is exactly why just about anything DE said, IMO, about the game should be dismissed at this point. He was simply offering his opinion, which seemed to change quite often. Many of them did.

AND THIS....from Georg Zoeller just makes it more confusing.

[W]e wanted to ensure that we had the flexibility to support several play-styles within each of these eight classes. So we built Advanced Classes into the game from the ground up to provide us with the ability to create and support different gameplay and roles inside each class.


As I indicated. The more they talked about it IMO the more confusing it got.