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Healer w/Guard


Vortumnus's Avatar


Vortumnus
04.06.2014 , 06:35 PM | #41
Quote:
Therefore, DuEdrvarya and Vortumnus, you are wrong. Please do not take this as an insult, it is not. And from the way you dismissed the other side as ~no one giving~ or such, I do not think you will listen, but for the others, please, PLEASE stop insisting on guarding the healer.
Hey... we were never talking abaout "what's normal"...

I have myself all operations cleared in hardmode and of course we are still working on some nightmare-content. I am NOT a progresser. I am ONLY actively playing with sorcerers/sages (as healers) and shadows/assas (as tanks).

When doing end-content raiding you will need players that know what to do and how to play their classes.

Anyways... Right from start it was going about "beginner-tanks" with "beginner-dps" playing low-level-flashpoints.

JDotter's Avatar


JDotter
04.06.2014 , 07:07 PM | #42
Guarded healers in my raids last night 100%.

Good advice worked great will being doing it again.

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
04.06.2014 , 08:58 PM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by jdotter View Post
guarded healers in my raids last night 100%.

Good advice worked great will being doing it again.
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DuEldrvarya's Avatar


DuEldrvarya
04.06.2014 , 09:33 PM | #44
I don't think people understand what I was saying. I will never ever pull with a taunt, and would never recommend anyone to do so....

My comment on monopoly of threat is explained this way. WORST POSSIBLE CASE (single target) From the first time as a tank you believe you might begin to lose threat (which really shouldn't happen for at least the first 4-5 globals if you didn't do a terrible pull job esp since Force pull for sins [which for them is ofc the pull] saber reflect for juggs/guardians, and pt's have one as well I believe each give you a static 7-10k threat modifier to open on a boss ahead of everyone else) if you taunted you are put at 110% of the highest threat out there (130% on targets outside of melee range), and the boss/mob is always on you for the next 6 seconds.

Then as that 6 seconds wears out and you are still worried that you are going to lose threat (which honestly you shouldn't be unless its a fight where you can't literally ever hit the mob somehow) then you can use your aoe taunt. This replaces whoever was at the top of the threat while you had "fake aggro" (which if you are taunting a second time that soon after the first one because you are worried about it, it would probably be someone that isn't you) with yourself AGAIN with 110/130% threat.

Now most of the burst rotation for openers is well over or tapering down by the time the next 6 seconds finishes, so there really isn't any reason in the world you shouldn't be at the top for threat (although if you taunted back to back anyways we probably can't make that argument).

BUT suppose you are really not feeling well today or anything so you did nothing during those first 12 seconds, and someone else has top threat. Well you failed, epicly, a guard wasn't going to change that since a guard would only help you if one dps is so much more unbelievably better (not even more bursty because you can use that burst to taunt like a beast if it's only burst damage) than all the rest.

GOOD NEWS though, is you only have 3 seconds left on the cd of your next taunt, so you mess up the raid for two globals (a bad thing, but probably not a wipe causing issue) then taunt a 3rd time. Now if you can't hold threat after that 3rd taunt (well after the real high burst window of every single spec in this game (21 seconds)), then you need to rq or l2p instead...

Lets not even get started about those poor pug tanks that lose aggro 30+ seconds after the fight begins
(worst I've seen was 4m29s into corrupter zero 16 sm a tank lost aggro.
X_X no aggro drop , just blatantly lost it, to a sorc dps....)

And that 5% DR is huge.... That's like giving a light armor spec medium armor or a medium armor heavy armor, or to the extreme sense its giving an arsenal merc with power barrier the same base dr as a sin tank.
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Also for leveling flashpoints, I think people miss the central issue. Dps do damage, but rarely heal. Healers often contribute to killing add packs esp in the first few seconds in an engagement where there isn't much to heal.
Consider then that most spec's (rage/lightning being the obvious exceptions) don't really distinguish themselves from heal classes in damage until well into the 30s and 40s (from the perspective of burst damage), any spec that has the potential of doing +/- 20% of a dps's damage while also generating extra threat from healing (in two of three healer specs passively) ought to be treated with more caution than ordinary dps. (not to mention the lazy people who queue as healers in dps spec and off heal while dpsing)

Finally the most important point, lose a dps, probably not that big of a deal, enrages won't be met unless peeps be bad (and not at all in leveling flashpoints). Lose a healer and likely a wipe (nearly 100% chance in fp's)
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DuEldrvarya's Avatar


DuEldrvarya
04.06.2014 , 10:03 PM | #45
Look obviously we've already decided that there isn't a piece of content in the game now that requires a guard for competent players. So if you really want to guard that dps, well then it's better than not using a guard in the first place.

I would merely argue that almost every possible situation in this game is better addressed by guarding healers or exceptionally squishy dps. Those that are squishy and aoe bursty are especially more suited as guard targets LIGHTNING SORCERERS I'M STARING RIGHT AT YOU!!!! (well you and me in a mirror 'cause I play/leveled one)

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wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
04.07.2014 , 05:32 AM | #46
First of all your entire argument comes from an elitist point of view, that tanks are only worthy if they perfect their rotations and hold threat 100% of the time. This isn't reality for a lot of people, and instead of denigrating them, why not suggest they use guard for the purpose it was actually meant to serve?

Could I personally tank in an operation without guarding a DPS? Sure. But for a lot of tanks when they're just starting out, or ESPECIALLY if there's a disparity in their gear to other players (which happens ALL THE TIME for new tanks), you can bet guarding a DPS is the way to go.

Also, you're wrong about the way DR works from guard, its multiplicative, not additive, so its more like 2% in reality. A very weak boost.

Now, yeah, for a lot of operations bosses there are fights where we'll guard healers for specific reasons. Example, Draxus, you're forced to use taunts for his aggro drop anyways and you're not fighting the DPS for threat for most of that fight, so why not give a bit of extra DR to healers. Or Nefra, I actually guard my co-tank (I'm a jugg, he's a powertech) and proceed to intercede him on cooldown, so we can maximize our DR.

But other fights it just makes sense to guard DPS. Grob'thok, so DPS can't pull the adds by accident with a big aoe hit before the off tank gets them and forces him to aoe taunt. Brontes, so you get a bit of help holding the Kephess adds without a taunt (I prefer to save my taunts for Brontes so I can always get her back if needed for any reason, this also helps to make sure I have a taunt available to pop someone's orb if necessary). Raptus, its quite obvious all the things that will go wrong if a DPS pulls off you for even a second in this fight, and the healers otherwise take minimal damage so there's no point to guarding them. Council, obviously you really don't want to lose Bestia or Calphayus on the initial pull, it gets marginal after the first swap but if you really think the DR is that important for healers in the final burn, just freaking swap your guard to them during a phase change.

I mean, flat out, this feels less and less like you're trying to help other players and more and more like you're gloating about the size of your e-peen. Congratulations, you can hold threat on DPS... a lot of good tanks can. But beginners and those with lesser gear should definitely use guard to their advantage, its there for a reason. Its not a crutch, its a tool.

Next thing you know we'll have another guy jump in with his own e-peen gloating and tell you that you're a bad tank for even needing to use taunts to hold a boss.

Or........... we can just look at taunts, and guard, and all other threat buliding/reducing tools for what they are, and just freaking use them properly.
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DuEldrvarya's Avatar


DuEldrvarya
04.07.2014 , 12:09 PM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by wadecounty View Post
Also, you're wrong about the way DR works from guard, its multiplicative, not additive, so its more like 2% in reality. A very weak boost.
Yes It's a multiplicative boost.... That was taken into consideration with my arguement.

A light armor dps/heals class with ~20%DR under gaurd gets boosted to ~24% DR (medium armor base dr-ish) (4% difference)
A heavy armor dps/heals class with ~30%DR is boosted to ~33.5% DR (3.5% difference)
(A 5 power barrier stack arsenal merc becomes with guard ~38.25 or same DR as 4 set piece 72/75 geared sin tank or 0-3 set piece 78 sin tank)

Even a PT tank with 53% DR is boosted to 55.4% DR (2.4% difference)

So no, its not 2% in reality and its not a weak boost. Also, Grobthok adds almost always run after heals first. Calphy(solo boss) allows for one taunt swap at beginning. Raptus allows for tanks to trade 3-4 taunts at beginning, as does council theoretically, although it would almost never be needed. I've already stated I believe Calph(council) is actually the harder tank assignment to start on with a strong melee alongside you, because unlike starting on bestia, you can't afford to use two taunts starting on calph, and depending on the positioning stratagem sometimes you can't even afford to use one due to the upcoming tank swap.

Brontits might be the single best example of when to guard dps seeing as rdps tend to take the most damage from 6 finger phase (since they are up the longest) and because your free threat modifiers (saber reflect/force pull/whatever pt is called again) are only up every other pull.


As for flashpoints again... there is never anymore pressing of a time to guard healers than the event where there is only one of them to start with.
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Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
04.07.2014 , 07:32 PM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by DuEldrvarya View Post
As for flashpoints again... there is never anymore pressing of a time to guard healers than the event where there is only one of them to start with.
Anyone who is a good enough tank to not lose aggro to a dps can guard whoever the heck they want.

Would you still recommend this for a less-than-perfect tank? Perhaps a new tank?

Let's say you ran a flashpoint AS A DPS. And you kept pulling off of the tank. Are you still going to insist the tank guard the healer? Are you going to stop the run and educate the tank on how to properly play their class? Are you going to drop group because you don't want to waste time with a terrible tank?

I just don't get your angle here.

I'll say again:
1. If you're trying to 'educate' progression raiders, you're wasting your time.
2. If you're trying to give advice to new tanks, you're doing a terrible job.

Maudril's Avatar


Maudril
04.08.2014 , 02:03 PM | #49
Lowbie healers DO need guard, because they are effectively in DPS gear. Healing abilities have a threat multiplier attached so that they draw aggro when using alacrity gear, to make things more difficult. In lowbie gear, where alacrity is a lot more rare than say Surge, Power, and Crit, they are putting out a lot of threat. This goes down as healers start to stack Alacrity, and their other stats go down in comparison to their DPS counterparts, so it works out that they put out less threat than most DPS.

In lowbies, guard the healer. In endgame, guard healers that are tardic enough to wear DPS gear. They need the threat reduction that Guard provides.
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sanctified's Avatar


sanctified
04.08.2014 , 02:21 PM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by DuEldrvarya View Post
Lvl 30, and having just leveled my new guardian through that point (the tank with the least aoe threat overall). Its still better to guard heals than dps. "edit" for tanks that know their classes inside and out that is. I guess I can't expect a new person to have a mastery of the class before they begin to level a toon so guarding dps is basically a crutch for them to learn against.

Also Operative and Merc heals have very very good aoe damage for their level which is another reason to guard them seeing as they should be helping a bit with dps too.
No, it isn't. Someone whose tank is only level 30 (i.e. hasn't tanked anything harder than Camameu) ought to consider listening to advice from people who've been playing for a while. This includes "Tanks who know their class inside and out."

How many times can people write "guard does not prevent threat"? Reduced threat is still threat, and it will still trigger an attack regardless of the guard being there or not, because Healing gives ranged threat, therefore Anything not being actively tanked or dps'd will turn its attention to the healer. Meaning, that having a guard on the healer is a wasted resource.
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