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Since Nibbon has quit: Sage/Sorcerer Top issues discussion

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sage / Sorcerer
Since Nibbon has quit: Sage/Sorcerer Top issues discussion
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Ramalina's Avatar


Ramalina
03.23.2014 , 04:40 PM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
In PvP, it's another matter. Life tapping to get your force back while you're being focused is completely impossible. You just can't do it. So you heal unsustainably until you're not being focused. The problem is that, in a serious arena, you're never not being focused. Sages/Sorcs basically are set up with a force management system in their healing tree which is useless during actual PvP combat, and thus they are even more force-negative than Balance/Madness. It would be really nice if Bioware would reexamine this, hopefully in a way that doesn't reduce the skill factor associated with force management in PvE.
I'd agree, with the additional point that the preferred heals when you're low on force are extremely interruptable.

In PvP it's survive, have resources, and heal; pick up to two of these options.

The exception of course being where the other side is leaving you alone to freecast, which doesn't normally happen if they're competent.
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Grethore's Avatar


Grethore
03.25.2014 , 12:50 PM | #32
Well, IMHO, to help the balance/madness trees with force management issues, I honestly think force in balance/death field should also apply weaken mind/affliction to the affected targets. This would help a little with applying the dots around, which is one of the most force costly things balance/madness specs do and a large portion of our ability to do damage. We dont have a lot of burst, so getting our dots up is key to our play style. This little change might be just barely enough to fix the force management issues. It would have to be higher up on the tree to prevent a hybrid build being able to abuse it though.
I'd urge caution on making too many or too large adjustments as it might completely unbalance the spec. So perhaps this could be tested out to see how it affects game play and force management.

CCubed's Avatar


CCubed
03.26.2014 , 12:09 PM | #33
I have been playing my Jedi Sage lately and wanted to share my honest opinions so far about the class.

Healing is a Joke
Know where my healing comes from? Force Wave. That gets me around 40k healing points a PvP match. But mostly, overall, even in PvE, I never heal. Let me tell you why in a nut shell.

Benevolence - Non-sustainable and way too expensive for what it does. Granted that the healing abilities of Benevolence, even at higher levels, seem to be just short of the ones for Deliverance. But still, I would rather have a lower level heal that's quicker and sustainable.

Deliverance - Takes too damn long. Even in PvE I get interrupted 99% of the time I try to use Deliverance mid battle and even if I do manage to use it on myself or someone else, right after, I basically immediately get aggro. In PvP it's a joke. You can't get off a Benevolence let alone a Deliverance.

For a healing class the Consular healing abilities are abysmal. I say abysmal because I think sub-par is a compliment in this case. There's absolutely no reason for a Consular to heal. They can do just as much, if not more, damage as any other DPS class and the damage abilities are basically immune to interrupt. Add on to that Force Potency which is basically a guaranteed Crit Hit and why the hell waste time with the crappy heal abilities that take too much time to get off and interrupt immediately.

Force Shield is Useless
No really, it's useless. I suppose it has a minor purpose in that in PvP I can pop it on a tank and give the tank a couple seconds, if that, to reheal and rebuff, but those seconds just aren't enough. Even with the fully upgraded force shield spec line it still barely lasts a couple seconds in PvP. In PvE even, higher level mobs tend to just obliterate it before it has any real use. Against strong mobs, I might as well give it up. The shield dies before a single heal geos off. Force mend is a better option.

On Force Mend
I actually don't have anything to say about Force Mend that's bad. It's one of the few useful healing skills (The fact that it's self healing should say something) and can save your bacon more than once. For the most part, I would say that using it in PvP is kind of useless unless you're away from the enemy and need a quick pill to get some health back. By and large, Force Mend seems more useful in PvE where the attacks are already mitigated by mob damage limits.

DPS
No complaints about DPS. Between the auto-crit of Force Potency in relation to force powers and Telekinetic Throw's ability to deal double damage with that one spec and occasionally incapacitate an opponent you really can't beat it. I think the highest damage I saw on my Consular when I was paying attention with using only TKT was 300 DPS? Granted I don't consider myself a PvPer. I like to take advantage of a warzone or two out of boredom, but I don't necessarily think I'm a stellar PVPer.

Survivability
As for Survivability, I don't really see a major issue in PvE. I actually manage to out survive Qyzen Fess on most of the high level mobs I go up against in PvE. Between force shield and being able to drop the force push (why is this not omnidirectional...) and force shield combo I don't have much problems surviving PvE. But let us return to PvP. Again, largely not survivable. You will get ganged up on and lots of classes can keep you stun locked and render you incapable of casting through various means. And Sage's are by far the worst lightsaber fighters. Worst. I don't know what canon this was based on (or if it was based on it at all) but there are plenty of jedi that focus on force pursuits who can still wield a lightsaber. It's kind of their main thing. So basically what I'm saying is: Sage is far more useful in PvE than PvP right now. I manage to get a couple kills a round, but I'm fairly sure that's because they are bad at their class.

So basically, I see the Jedi Sage as a PvE class, not a PvP class. It seems as if the Sith Sorc is a far better choice if you want to have a PvP caster. Especially given the cooldown on their stun lightning ability appears to be basically nothing or so little time that whatever time you gain by breaking the stun using our single stun break ability (but no interrupt resist abilities (Resist, not Immunity, Immunity is another story)) seems largely useless. Especially when you just get restunned.

Also, why the hell do we have a mind wipe ability that kills a skill mid-skill and increase cooldown if it doesn't work? You're almost better off not using it.

For that matter, does anyone else have enemies finish skills in progress after stunning them with force stun?

TaitWatson's Avatar


TaitWatson
03.27.2014 , 10:30 AM | #34 This is the last staff post in this thread.  
Quote: Originally Posted by Master-Nala View Post
Hello, my fellow Sages. Our Class Representative Nibbon stated here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...92#post6952892 that he's gone and won't be participating in the Class Representative questions if they restarted.

Well, it looks like they've restarted: http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...22#edit7199122

Reviewing our Class Rep thread, there were scant other nominees other than Nibbon. Psirebral, the Sorcerer rep, has also quit the game after the debacle that was "Heal to Full." I started this thread, not to wrest the Class Rep title from Nibbon or anyone else. But I also don't think that the Sage community should express complete apathy, because many of the same issues that existed in the Sorcerer round still exist. So I'm hoping we can get some discussion going about what questions to pose to the developers.

Hey folks!

Since the Class Representative is no longer around, we will be considering the questions that will be submitted by Master-Nala as the "official" ones. Keep up the discussions!

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Tait "pariahloki" Watson
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AdrianDmitruk's Avatar


AdrianDmitruk
03.27.2014 , 10:56 AM | #35
Nala, I would like to note that the first question was pretty much addressed by moving Fadeout down to Tier 2. I doubt the Combat Team is willing to move it down further; they'll just say "We already made it available to 36 point DPS specs, and we feel the 7-point sacrifice is a fair tradeoff for the ability."

I would definitely like to see the lack of reward for positioning in PVP (no heals usable on a teammate while hiding with LoS) addressed for corruption healers; I'm pretty sure you've seen my posts on that. That can probably be wedged into the "survivability" question as the Combat Team seems to balance our survivability around positioning.

Bonus question: After making fadeout accessible to DPS, what's the point in even trying to heal in PVP anymore? Now both of the other healing classes are directly better at it lol
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Master-Nala's Avatar


Master-Nala
03.27.2014 , 11:05 AM | #36
Thanks Tait!

In that vein my fellows, I have boiled down all the issues in this thread and the companion thread over on the Sorcerer forum. I am looking to boil this down to three questions. This list has as little editorializing as possible. My sense is that a question regarding survivability is a given and I've started drafting and will submit a question for comments. I also think a question regarding damage/healing is appropriate. My thoughts given what has gone on is to focus on pushback/interrupts as that seems to be the major problem.

Finally, I think we have some room for a 'fun' question. Sages have gotten a lot of attention in 2.7 and will undeniably be better off in 2.7. So some of those visual, theme issues might be OK to 'waste' a question on. Anything not stated will be in feedback.

SURVIVABILITY

1) Egress baseline
Status: Coming in 2.7 but many players have expressed that the sacrifice is too great for Balance/Lightning

2)Defensive cooldown
Status: Barrier is receiving a nice buff, egress as stated, no other changes leaving an open question about whether the class still needs a defensive cooldown

BALANCE ISSUES : HEALING AND DAMAGE

3)Pushback for TK spec (Mind Crush, TK Throw) rotational abilities
Status: Rob Hinkle is looking into it - http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...32#edit7317032

4)Execute phase change (to project/DoTs/etc.)
Status - part of the overall discussion of Sage DPS but nothing in the offing.

5)More sustained DPS for Balance
Status - part of the overall discussion of Sage DPS but nothing in the offing. See http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=730319

6) PVP: What do you think about the 0/30/16 hybrid?
Status - Not sure what the concern is here?

7)Pure specs v. Hybrids Pure specs don't seem as worthwhile with such a viable hybrid available.
Status - The devs appear to be mindful of this

8) PVE: Will you consider buffing the bonus damage done by Mental Momentum (the proc'd Turbulence blast) by 20%, up to a total of 50%, to compensate for the longer ICD of TelekineticWave; and therefore the slightly reduced DPS output of telekinetics after 2.7?
Status: No changes at present

9) PvP: Will you do anything about the Seer/Balance Hybrid that is slotted as DPS, but effectively gives a team a(nother) healer in Arenas.
Status: No changes at present

10)Restore Force Stun's original 30m range.
Status: No changes at present

11)Benevolence's force cost
Status: No changes at present

12)Deliverance's cast time
Status: No changes at present

13)Force Mend/Force Armor off GCD as talents
Status: No changes at present

14) "cross bubbling" penalizes teams with more than 1 Sorc. What I mean is, if I as a Sorc in healing spec am bubbled by another Sorc, I don't get the 1%/sec hot on my Sorc. Similarly, if I as a lightning Sorc get someone else's bubble, no bubble stun for me. It would be kind of cool if these effects were changed to something like we recieve the 1%/sec hot/bubble stun on ourselves as long as ANY static barrier is placed on us, provided we are specced for it.
Status: No changes at present

15) Make our knockback push enemies further then 10 meters so it would not be so easy to counter in pvp. Reduce the range of the cone if it would be too overpowered.
Status: No changes at present

16) PVP - if consumption is not going to be off the GCD, could they at least buff the set bonus so that no health would be lost by using consumption
Status: No changes at present

17) Healer - if static barrier is to be our proactive heal, maybe for healers, they could add a talent that puts a hot on a player after static barrier is destroyed. It would help a little against burst mechanics.
Status: No changes at present

18) DoTs immediately breaking mez bubble
Status: No changes at present

19)Stun range to 30 m
Status: No changes at present

20)TK's PvP issues (easy to interrupt two of its major abilities)
Status: Changes in 2.7 will help a bit with consistency, but pushback remains a serious concern for the spec

21) Resurgence cooldown
Status: No changes at present

22)LOS to make them pay, doesn't allow us to do our job (Healing or DPS)
Status: No changes at present

QOL, INCLUDING FORCE MANAGEMENT
23)Force Management
Status: Balance is receiving changes via TK Focal Point that should allow management to be easier. TK does not have a problem here. Healing can rely on Noble Sacrifice in PvE, but unusable in PvP.

RANDOM/FUN
24)Using the Lightsaber
25)Invisible Lightsaber (since it is only a stat stick)
26) VISUAL: Many people hate Project and even more hate TK throw's animations and think they look much weaker than Sorcerer's lightning. Any chance for alternate animations or changes to make these more LORE respecting
27) PVP + PVE: Will you take another look at WP bonus damage being removed from melee attacks after 2.7, to see if your original rationale for removing it still applies?
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AdrianDmitruk's Avatar


AdrianDmitruk
03.27.2014 , 11:13 AM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Master-Nala View Post
22)LOS to make them pay, doesn't allow us to do our job (Healing or DPS)
Status: No changes at present
Be sure to note how our entire survivability is balanced around LOS "As a sorcerer, you must play defensively..." so class balance doesn't allow us to do our jobs unless we're madness and our dots keep ticking!
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Aerilas's Avatar


Aerilas
03.27.2014 , 11:18 AM | #38
Love how you put stun range 30m twice in there
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Master-Nala's Avatar


Master-Nala
03.27.2014 , 11:26 AM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by Aerilas View Post
Love how you put stun range 30m twice in there
Thought I had removed all the duplicates!
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Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
03.27.2014 , 11:45 AM | #40
Yeh, I don't chime in much here, because my sage does fine in the 78 runs, and is ridiculously OP in regs, I realise how excruciating some of these PVP issues must be in ranked. (I only do ranked on my scoundrel, and seeing a Sage healer is pretty much an instant win for me)

What I would say however, is to not ask things about anything that's changed, Namely Egress. They won't move it further, they've acted on the issue to what they see as Balanced.

Asking the same things the crazy Sorcs asked also won't get us anywhere, I feel the answer will be exactly the same, and we should probably try quell public outcries before they begin

I'll get talking to others, see what they think, see if I can't help my main's class here as much as I can, but I just wanted to get that out the way
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