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suggestions from a beta player


AmagonofBloodfin's Avatar


AmagonofBloodfin
03.13.2014 , 07:36 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by theUndead View Post
I will just respond to this post with this. PvE and PvP are both gear grinds and although this is a old formula for aaa mmos it is the road this game has taken. As such, it is simply impossible to base content on skill only. I say this because gear and loot offer incentives and people are used to min maxing their gear in preparation for the next tier.

Should it be different maybe, but the fact is, is that it is a system that is here to stay. As another poster said because you do not raid you do not need the gear. Now for me, I have always advocated that raiding remain as is, however in terms of the wide variety of playstyles yours included, I think that if new stand alone content for soloist were released it would close the gap somewhat.
I disagree only with the statement that it's impossible to change this or any game's formula. that's the entire point of an mmo is that it is constantly changing. changing the way your get your core base of stats shouldn't have any impact on what content you wish to enjoy.

I guess my point is that if all the gear was equal, then you wouldn't need better gear anyways. I just don't see the point in arguin against a level playing field in favor of tiered min/maxing for personal gain. If everyone had the same armor cores, there would be no walls to grind through, everything would be just cosmetic reward wise and content balanced against skill and not gear.

I'm not understanding your "it's impossible" attitude, because physically it's very possible.

theUndead's Avatar


theUndead
03.13.2014 , 08:50 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by AmagonofBloodfin View Post
I disagree only with the statement that it's impossible to change this or any game's formula. that's the entire point of an mmo is that it is constantly changing. changing the way your get your core base of stats shouldn't have any impact on what content you wish to enjoy.

I guess my point is that if all the gear was equal, then you wouldn't need better gear anyways. I just don't see the point in arguin against a level playing field in favor of tiered min/maxing for personal gain. If everyone had the same armor cores, there would be no walls to grind through, everything would be just cosmetic reward wise and content balanced against skill and not gear.

I'm not understanding your "it's impossible" attitude, because physically it's very possible.
Impossible in the sense that it would require a drastic overhaul of what the game had also what makes you think everyone feels the same way you do in terms of skill? Your assuming everyone would like skill based combat and therein lies an issue because some people myself included do NOT like skill based combat only.

Another thing I would like to point out is that for those raiders who work tirelessly to get through the hardest content and get rewarded with the best gear would feel marganilsed because their efforts would be invalidated because as you said "all gear would be equal"

Wait hold on, did you say min/maxing for personal gain? You saying it is a bad thing when a player wants to get optimal stats to maximize their DPS, heals or threat? You are right that MMO's can evolve but many of the aspects you referring to would better suited to a sandbox not a themepark. Another thing, I highly disagree with your assertion that the point of a MMO is to constantly change, as to me the point of a MMO is to invest time in a character and be social.

I am not sure if you are understanding this but you simply can't say that rewards for raiding need to be cosmetic that is a huge slap in the face to those who work hard to earn their way. Again because you do not take part in said content you don't actually get to say what the rewards should be.

Edit: One final thing, you mentioned how content would be "balanced" to skill rather than gear. That to me feels like you want things dumbed down, It probably isn't but why do things need to be balanced? Some things you require to have more than just skill to complete.
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AmagonofBloodfin
03.13.2014 , 10:26 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by theUndead View Post
Impossible in the sense that it would require a drastic overhaul of what the game had also what makes you think everyone feels the same way you do in terms of skill? Your assuming everyone would like skill based combat and therein lies an issue because some people myself included do NOT like skill based combat only.
It really wouldn't be that big of an overhaul, no more so than they have already done with the first overhaul by adding modify-able armor. A lot of people forget that this game has already had one major gearing overhaul, but original pieces did not have slots for components, so in reality if those slots were filled by crafting mods instead of looted mods, and future operations/pvp were balanced for that it really would be almost literally no work. I would be one tier for everyone. So I guess if you don't like skill based combat you just want to stand in one spot hitting '1' repeatedly? Sounds exciting.

Quote: Originally Posted by theUndead View Post
Another thing I would like to point out is that for those raiders who work tirelessly to get through the hardest content and get rewarded with the best gear would feel marganilsed because their efforts would be invalidated because as you said "all gear would be equal"
I think that would be the initial reaction. However, if anything has been proven, shiny/flashy loot drives people in this game crazy, look at all the people who all the sudden are trying to get a 1500 rating for their rancors. I think if you make content challenging enough and provide enough of an intensive to go out and earn it, people will still put in the time.

And as I have already said, if i didn't have to grind all 8+ characters to 55, then to tiers of appropriate gear, you might find more people willing to participate and being social.

Quote: Originally Posted by theUndead View Post
Wait hold on, did you say min/maxing for personal gain? You saying it is a bad thing when a player wants to get optimal stats to maximize their DPS, heals or threat? You are right that MMO's can evolve but many of the aspects you referring to would better suited to a sandbox not a themepark. Another thing, I highly disagree with your assertion that the point of a MMO is to constantly change, as to me the point of a MMO is to invest time in a character and be social.
I do think making players level up, then gear up through 2-3 tiers of gear, and then min/max is wrong, yes. This game was developed to be played through on multiple characters and experience their story, adding another grind upon a grind upon a grind is wrong, I just want to play my characters and "be social" as you put it.

I think you've also taken my statement out of context and added your own spin. The point I was making was that these changes are not impossible, and the reason you design a game as an mmo is at it's very core to expand and grow it through new content and changes Your definition of investing time and being social easily fits to LOL or even online shooters, they don't change, they sometimes add content but not frequently. So yes the point of building an MMO is so that it can be expanded, it may not be why YOU play an MMO but that is the point.

Quote: Originally Posted by theUndead View Post
I am not sure if you are understanding this but you simply can't say that rewards for raiding need to be cosmetic that is a huge slap in the face to those who work hard to earn their way. Again because you do not take part in said content you don't actually get to say what the rewards should be.
To be brutally honest, neither do you. That being said this is my thread and just because you think it's a slap in the face it certainly wont stop endless amounts of raiders from going on in a few weeks to try and get a purely cosmetic item from NIM modes of DF/DP. Cosmetic isn't this big slap in the face, it's what 99% of this game is built on anyways.[/QUOTE]

Quote: Originally Posted by theUndead View Post
Edit: One final thing, you mentioned how content would be "balanced" to skill rather than gear. That to me feels like you want things dumbed down, It probably isn't but why do things need to be balanced? Some things you require to have more than just skill to complete.
No actually in fact I think this game should be much harder, I think if you could no longer rely on your gear to get you into 16-man raids just to coast by and complete achievements and you actually had to be skilled this game would be much better. I honestly am not shocked to hear someone advocate their pve gear being awesome and it should be all they need but that's also the reason I think many pve players really aren't that good at actually playing their class. To play a game, those who are skilled should be better rewarded than those who are not, and balancing future content with that in mind is where I think this game should go towards.

theUndead's Avatar


theUndead
03.14.2014 , 02:42 AM | #14
[
Quote:
QUOTE=AmagonofBloodfin;7284428]It really wouldn't be that big of an overhaul, no more so than they have already done with the first overhaul by adding modify-able armor. A lot of people forget that this game has already had one major gearing overhaul, but original pieces did not have slots for components, so in reality if those slots were filled by crafting mods instead of looted mods, and future operations/pvp were balanced for that it really would be almost literally no work. I would be one tier for everyone. So I guess if you don't like skill based combat you just want to stand in one spot hitting '1' repeatedly? Sounds exciting.
Are you a game developer? Do have actual proof it would not be incrdibly costy to a major overhaul again? And again why must everything be equal? Why are those who do not put the effort in suddendly have the same playing field. I like your tongue and cheek comment on what you think I might like, no I just like the combat as is.

Quote:
I think that would be the initial reaction. However, if anything has been proven, shiny/flashy loot drives people in this game crazy, look at all the people who all the sudden are trying to get a 1500 rating for their rancors. I think if you make content challenging enough and provide enough of an intensive to go out and earn it, people will still put in the time.
Really? and what incentives would you put in? I agree that content must be challenging but simply eliminating the gear carrot stick is not ideal.

Quote:
And as I have already said, if i didn't have to grind all 8+ characters to 55, then to tiers of appropriate gear, you might find more people willing to participate and being social.
That is nothing more than a baseless opinion you can't possibly know how players will want to communicate.

Quote:
I do think making players level up, then gear up through 2-3 tiers of gear, and then min/max is wrong, yes. This game was developed to be played through on multiple characters and experience their story, adding another grind upon a grind upon a grind is wrong, I just want to play my characters and "be social" as you put it.
Really? So you telling me that I am wrong for min/maxing my guardian to optimal because I want to be the best DPS I can for my raid tem? Wow talk about being selfish. Just because this game was labelled as a story based game does NOT mean that everything should be about that. How dare you say that adding a grind which to many people is the game is wrong. I mean honesty the way you described it, is that the story component of the game should stay but screw the mmo part. No one is allowed to have the correct stats because it has nothing to do with story. Sorry you don't get to re define what an mmo is.

Quote:
I think you've also taken my statement out of context and added your own spin. The point I was making was that these changes are not impossible, and the reason you design a game as an mmo is at it's very core to expand and grow it through new content and changes Your definition of investing time and being social easily fits to LOL or even online shooters, they don't change, they sometimes add content but not frequently. So yes the point of building an MMO is so that it can be expanded, it may not be why YOU play an MMO but that is the point.
Again that is nothing more than conjecture from you. Yes the changes are not impossible but that does not mean they are feasable. And no it is not the point, because you said the essence of a mmo is to change and become more dyanmic and yet you say that is not the way I play, well you would be correct it is not and it is not many others
so stop trying to dictate what should and should not be accepable ways of playing the game. I did not once say that you are wrong for playing your way so don't come and tell me I am wrong for mine.

Quote:
To be brutally honest, neither do you. That being said this is my thread and just because you think it's a slap in the face it certainly wont stop endless amounts of raiders from going on in a few weeks to try and get a purely cosmetic item from NIM modes of DF/DP. Cosmetic isn't this big slap in the face, it's what 99% of this game is built on anyways.
[

No it is not your thread, it is a thread you created on a public forum. You don't like my opinion? Fine don't but don't for a second think the game is 99% cosmetic because it isn't. The game is mostly about gear, endgame, story and and cosmetics.

Quote:
No actually in fact I think this game should be much harder, I think if you could no longer rely on your gear to get you into 16-man raids just to coast by and complete achievements and you actually had to be skilled this game would be much better. I honestly am not shocked to hear someone advocate their pve gear being awesome and it should be all they need but that's also the reason I think many pve players really aren't that good at actually playing their class. To play a game, those who are skilled should be better rewarded than those who are not, and balancing future content with that in mind is where I think this game should go towards.
Oh so here the crux of it is. You don't like PvE players like me who enjoy the game for what it is. Well guess what, suck it up. You do not know how each person plays their class so how the hell can you make such a baseless statment saying most of them are clueless. You also don't know me or how I play so therefore I would ask you to be careful in saying that I and most others are useless when you don't have a shred of proof to back that up. You want a game that rewards skill over gear? Go play Gw2.
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AmagonofBloodfin's Avatar


AmagonofBloodfin
03.14.2014 , 08:55 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by theUndead View Post
mostly non-sense
well at this point we're just getting repetitive, you're wrong on mostly everything you posted and that's ok. taking the gear grind out of this game and making content based on skill for pve and pvp is absolutely the best way to move forward.

theUndead's Avatar


theUndead
03.14.2014 , 04:39 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by AmagonofBloodfin View Post
well at this point we're just getting repetitive, you're wrong on mostly everything you posted and that's ok. taking the gear grind out of this game and making content based on skill for pve and pvp is absolutely the best way to move forward.
Oh really I am wrong just because you say so? Exactly who made you the great know it all of this game. And you can stop with the pompous arrogant attitude. Don't come and tell me I'm wrong just because you don't agree with me. As that makes you come across as self entitled and immature. So again no taking the gear grind away is not the best way forward and if you don't agree suck it up it's my opinion. You have yours and I have mine.

Edit: You know your title of the thread was suggestions from a beta player, well guess what I am a beta player too so that makes me just as learned as you.
The Hellion Legacy (Harbinger)
Referal Link
For free stuff and coins including a one time character transfer.
"The best weapon against an enemy is another enemy." Friedrich Nietzsche

Phyltr's Avatar


Phyltr
03.14.2014 , 11:03 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by AmagonofBloodfin View Post
well at this point we're just getting repetitive, you're wrong on mostly everything you posted and that's ok. taking the gear grind out of this game and making content based on skill for pve and pvp is absolutely the best way to move forward.
I would argue that removing the gear grind stops forward movement. Not many people are going to do raids if there isn't some reward and how many speeders are you going to throw at them. Gear is how you show progress in this game. Sorry you don't like it, but that's how it is and they would be changing the entire direction of the game to alter that in some way. It would feel utterly stale to sit in the same gear while doing op after op and that would be terrible.