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ETA on Advanced Class change?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
ETA on Advanced Class change?

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
03.11.2014 , 09:22 PM | #4281
Quote: Originally Posted by Seldan View Post
I cannot speak for others, but I have a Gunslinger, Scoundrel, and Operative ( and several other classes ). I support AC changes because I believe it is overall healthy for the game to provide more options for its players.

To answer your question, consider:
  • The player that decides they do not enjoy their level 35 Vanguard, and would like to experience the Commando AC without replaying 35 levels.
  • Someone that has an abandoned character, e.g. a Level 50 Sentinel they have not played since 1.4 They have no desire to start again from level 1, however the option to change to a Guardian has renewed their interest in the character.
  • One that is bored of their 55 alt, has no desire to do the same class quests, same planetary arcs, or grind GSF/KDY, but is curious in the play style of the other AC.

These are all candidates for AC Changes, the end result would be renewed/retained player interest and additional revenue for the game.
Those are all also candidates for leveling that new class they want to play. Each of your examples is also a player who is too averse to the effort of leveling that new player. I think there is a word which is defined as "an aversion to work or EFFORT". That word seems to describe each of the players in your examples.

While BW may see some players return and/or stay if they allow class changes, they WILL lose players as well. Will they gain or keep as many as they lose? Who knows? Only BW can make that determination.

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
03.11.2014 , 09:27 PM | #4282
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
Just out of curiousity (and mind you, I'm not lobbying for an AC swap because I don't really care one way or the other), what are your thoughts on the comments earlier in this thread pointing out:

1. Everquest 2 has AC swap.
2. WOW is selling "instant level 90s".
3. Rift allows soul swapping, which is similar to an AC swap.
Was EQ2 built from the ground up to allow their version of "AC swap"? I don't know since I never played EQ2. I do know that this game was NOT.

WoW is selling instant 90's now for $60 and while that is level cap now, it will not be when the expansion hits later this year. Are you willing to pay $60 to change your class?

Rift has the soul system, but souls are NOT classes. That game was also designed from the ground up to allow for an almost infinite combination of souls and to allow those souls to be freely changed, much like changing specs.

Not exactly comparing apples to apples, are we?

Scorcheous's Avatar


Scorcheous
03.11.2014 , 09:28 PM | #4283
Wow, quite a lot of hate for this idea.

I think that AC changes would be harmless as long as there were some restrictions put in place:
  • $20 Cost for AC change
  • Maximum 3 AC swaps per character
  • Player must re-purchase all abilities (unless character is level 55 and has purchased all abilities)
  • Account-wide 30 day lockout of AC swap for those who do it
With these in place it would help discourage/prevent players from switching ACs every five seconds, and hopefully still accomplish what SWTOR-dedicated AC Swappers want accomplished.
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Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
03.11.2014 , 09:39 PM | #4284
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
Was EQ2 built from the ground up to allow their version of "AC swap"? I don't know since I never played EQ2. I do know that this game was NOT.
Never played it, don't know.
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
WoW is selling instant 90's now for $60 and while that is level cap now, it will not be when the expansion hits later this year. Are you willing to pay $60 to change your class?
Me? Absolutely not. But then again, I have 16 toons (one of each AC). So I'm not really the target market for AC swaps, am I?

On the other hand, would you be satisfied with AC swap implemented if it cost $60? Or would you disagree with it's implementation even then?
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
Rift has the soul system, but souls are NOT classes. That game was also designed from the ground up to allow for an almost infinite combination of souls and to allow those souls to be freely changed, much like changing specs.
I suppose it could be argued that it's more like AC swap than isn't, but I'm not a Rift expert, so I won't try to do so.
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
Not exactly comparing apples to apples, are we?
I'm not the one that was comparing it. That was someone else -- I was simply curious as to your thoughts on it.

I find it interesting how strongly you feel about this. I mean, I don't particularly disagree with the points you make, it's just that I can't quite muster up enough hate for the idea to carry a torch about it like you seem to.

Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
03.11.2014 , 09:51 PM | #4285
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
Never played it, don't know.
As I said, that makes two of us.

Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
Me? Absolutely not. But then again, I have 16 toons (one of each AC). So I'm not really the target market for AC swaps, am I?

On the other hand, would you be satisfied with AC swap implemented if it cost $60? Or would you disagree with it's implementation even then?
I'm against allowing class changes, but if they charged $60 for them, it would make it easier to accept. $60 is enough to make someone really consider whether having that new class is worth paying the price to change or if it would be better to actually level that new class. It would also go a long way towards cutting down the number of people who might otherwise just flip-flop their classes at the drop of a hat.

Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
I suppose it could be argued that it's more like AC swap than isn't, but I'm not a Rift expert, so I won't try to do so.
Just as it could be argued that the souls are closer to the spec trees.

Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
I'm not the one that was comparing it. That was someone else -- I was simply curious as to your thoughts on it.

I find it interesting how strongly you feel about this. I mean, I don't particularly disagree with the points you make, it's just that I can't quite muster up enough hate for the idea to carry a torch about it like you seem to.
I just think some things should be left in the "have to be earned" category and playing a different class should be one of them. IMO, there are far too many people who want to use "it's a game" as an excuse for laziness and asking to have things handed to them.

Seldan's Avatar


Seldan
03.11.2014 , 10:11 PM | #4286
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
Was EQ2 built from the ground up to allow their version of "AC swap"? I don't know since I never played EQ2. I do know that this game was NOT.

WoW is selling instant 90's now for $60 and while that is level cap now, it will not be when the expansion hits later this year. Are you willing to pay $60 to change your class?

Rift has the soul system, but souls are NOT classes. That game was also designed from the ground up to allow for an almost infinite combination of souls and to allow those souls to be freely changed, much like changing specs.

Not exactly comparing apples to apples, are we?
WoW's Level 90 boost is also included with the purchase of their 6.0 expansion. I'll ask you a similar question - would you be comfortable with a free Level 50 ( previous level cap boost ) for everyone that purchases ROTHC?

As for Rift's soul system, is it very much comparable to Advanced Classes in SWTOR. You select your souls while leveling your class which provide access to the soul trees. These can be changed at anytime.

Let's imagine a world if Rift did not allow Soul swapping, and people requested it:

Using your logic:
  • You didn't level with the Shaman soul, so you won't know how to play it at cap.
  • Bladedancers are overpowered, everyone will FOTM to one if they allow soul swapping
  • I leveled two Clerics, if you want a Shaman soul, then level another Cleric.

Yet here we are, Soul Swapping exists, and does not ruin that game. Rift Souls and TOR Advanced Classes are very similar features. TOR is ( for now ) more restrictive. The developers should reevaluate this design decision, as myself and others feel it would be a great addition to the game.

To claim that this game was not designed around Advanced Class swapping is a false statement.

I recall in beta the developers changing their stance on it several times. Before release ( around Nov 2011 ) they indicated there would be an AC change feature with an increasing cost as your character gained levels. The last communication from the developers on this issue is that it would "likely happen".

ThorgrimLutgen's Avatar


ThorgrimLutgen
03.12.2014 , 07:55 AM | #4287
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
The level 90 boosts in WoW are $60 and while that is max level now, it will not be once the expansion hits later this year. Would you be willing to pay $60 to change your class?

I've not seen anyone in this thread willing to pay $60 to change their class. It seems that most people want it to be at most $20 and many would prefer it to be far less than that.
If for some reason BW caved in to these people, you can bet it will not be $20. Do not forget, a SINGLE USE BLACK/BLACK DYE almost cost that much.

Something as game breaking as this feature will go for $90 minimum.

If people are so desperate or bone idle, let them put their money where their mouths are and support the game rather than expecting everything handed to them on a plate.
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Seldan's Avatar


Seldan
03.12.2014 , 09:09 AM | #4288
Quote: Originally Posted by ThorgrimLutgen View Post
Something as game breaking as this feature will go for $90 minimum.
.
Can you elaborate why you feel this feature would be game breaking? Several of the concerns and myths ( player skill, FOTM abuse ) have been addressed by the supporters of an AC Change feature.

Quote: Originally Posted by ThorgrimLutgen View Post
If people are so desperate or bone idle, let them put their money where their mouths are and support the game rather than expecting everything handed to them on a plate.
Who is asking for something to be handed to them on a plate? Those that have suggested the feature are willing to pay Cartel Coins or Credits via the GTN or a Vendor ( similar to the Mercenary Contract for Treek ). The feature would be accessible in a variety of ways to the player base.

TUXs's Avatar


TUXs
03.12.2014 , 09:21 AM | #4289
Quote: Originally Posted by ThorgrimLutgen View Post
Something as game breaking as this feature will go for $90 minimum.

If people are so desperate or bone idle, let them put their money where their mouths are and support the game rather than expecting everything handed to them on a plate.
Game breaking? LOL! Please...I'd love to hear what you think is so "game breaking" about this idea...because that's one of the most ridiculous comments I've ever heard with this debate.

People don't need to be "desperate" or "bone idle" to want this freedom. MMOs are meant to be played for fun. If my current AC isn't "fun" to me and I think the alternative AC might be, why the hell are you so against it? If it keeps a bored or frustrated player playing, isn't that good for the health of the game and the community as a whole?

Please name ONE negative of this...just ONE! There isn't one imo. There's NO reason not to allow this at all, just people like you who think it's your freaking business what AC I opt to play...mind your own business, play whatever way you want, but you have no right to be so freaking nosy that you give a flip what AC I opt to play.

Over 50% of my skills remain the exact same, AC to AC. Switching AC is nothing more than a slightly different respec.

Geezus people...what a bunch of nosy Nancy's.
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Slicka's Avatar


Slicka
03.12.2014 , 09:47 AM | #4290
Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
...Please name ONE negative of this...just ONE! There isn't one imo. There's NO reason not to allow this at all, just people like you who think it's your freaking business what AC I opt to play...mind your own business, play whatever way you want, but you have no right to be so freaking nosy that you give a flip what AC I opt to play. ...
And here lies the problem, TUXs. When both sides truly believe there isn't a reason to allow, or disallow an AC change, it just becomes one big argument.

I agree that there is a very weak argument for not allowing it compared to possibly allowing it. I like how Erickson originally explained that the idea was all about choices being meaningful. This to me is why I would like it to remain permanent where no AC change exists. Unfortunately, at the same time you look at some choices that were originally in the story that were removed because of players being upset they just killed off a companion that they felt were needed later on, and this even throws the previous case out the window.

I can see where both sides are coming from because it is like a slap in the face to those who played the same base class twice to get the other AC. At the same time, a new player isn't going to necessarily understand why this is permanent whereas in a game like WOW, it isn't. Whether it will be changed in the future, only time will tell. It is a game-breaking decision, however; as it could cost as many or more players than it could save. Will this decision be made lightly? Most likely not. If it does come, is it a sign that the game is on it's last legs, or is it a sign that game is thriving and continues to be a driving force within the MMO community? Only then will we know if this decision makes the impact that everyone in this thread does agree on. One that will change the game. For better, or for worse? Only time and the opinions of a multitude of players will tell.
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