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Marauder Top 3 Answers!

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EricMusco's Avatar


EricMusco
03.11.2014 , 10:23 AM | #1 This is the last staff post in this thread.  
Hey everyone,

Below you will find the answers to your top 3, relayed from the Combat Team. Thanks!


Carnage revolves around the ability to anticipate, plan, and execute periods of burst damage. However, carnage suffers from an inability to fully capitalize on Gore windows due to two distinct issues: Slaughter RNG and the excessive susceptibility to stuns/knockbacks. Due to the RNG design of Slaughter, any unplanned Ataru strikes (i.e those not originating from Massacre) have the potential to replace an available Gore with a Gore from Slaughter, essentially denying a second burst DPS window. Allowing the Gore from Slaughter to activate only when Gore is on cooldown, for instance, would resolve some of the negative aspects of RNG. Second, Gore windows are exceedingly vulnerable to stuns and knockbacks, especially in PVP where these counters are more readily available than Gore itself. Adding a level of protection to Gore windows would further encourage the use of Carnage in competitive PVP and, subsequently, would require a more skillful use of stuns and knockback counters. For example, Gore could be altered so that it remains as a temporary static buff until direct damage is initiated, at which point the 4.5 second window would commence. This would increase the damage potential of carnage and would require players to use stuns and knockbacks more skillfully.

Is this inability to fully capitalize on Gore windows intentional and, if so, what is the reasoning behind this decision?
To answer the question, yes and no.

When the Slaughter/Hand of Justice skill was first designed, it did not originally reset the cooldown on Gore/Precision Slash. After some play-testing, the thought was that players would just sit on their free Vicious Throw/Dispatch until Gore/Precision Slash was available, so we made the skill reset the cooldown of Gore/Precision Slash as well (to keep players from feeling like they needed to hold off on using Vicious Throw/Dispatch until their Gore/Precision Slash buff was active). The Gore/Precision Slash cooldown resets triggered by unplanned Ataru Form strikes was not thoughtfully intended, but rather, it is a byproduct of making sure Marauders/Sentinels do not have to hold off on using Vicious Throw/Dispatch until their Gore/Precision Slash comes off cooldown. However, we did not plan to make Gore/Precision Slash harder to use by resetting its cooldown, because the Slaughter/Hand of Justice skill was primarily focused on resetting Vicious Throw’s/Dispatch’s cooldown rather than Gore’s/Precision Slash’s cooldown.

As for the difficulties presented by various forms of crowd control, that is intended. We will continue to keep our eyes on Marauder/Sentinel and how their overall performance is in PvP. If we feel that they are being outperformed by many of the other classes, we might consider having Gore/Precision Slash grant a few charges with a longer duration that get consumed when damage is dealt to help Marauders/Sentinels use Gore/Precision Slash to its full effect.


According to the response given in the Jedi Sentinel forums, the development team stated that Annihilation was intended to be the superior spec for sustained DPS. However, this does not hold true when comparing Annihilation to Carnage and hybrid DPS OPs parses. This discrepancy is due to Annihilation's lack of on demand DPS required with target switches. The developer response in the Jedi Sentinel forums regarding Annihilator stacks and buff duration promises to address some of these issues. However, the community feels that additional changes are required. For example, Annihilate could be improved to do bonus damage on bleeding targets or apply a separate bleed. Furthermore, Annihilation DoTs could feature better protection against cleanses and/or provide better options for application/reapplication, such as a bonus effect added to the Pulverize/Rupture reset mechanic (i.e. Annihilate stacks, cooldown reduction, reduced rage costs, crit rating boost etc).

Does the development team believe that the design of Annihilation as a sustained DPS spec is performing as expected, especially in a PVE/PVP environment that favors burst damage and target switches?
We are not completely satisfied with how Annihilation/Watchman performs. In a vacuum, where no movement is required and the stars align, Annihilation/Watchman is capable of dishing out some massive sustained damage, but that is not the world in which SWTOR gets played. We do intend to make some changes to Annihilation/Watchman in order to improve its performance in both PvE and PvP, but we are not ready to discuss any of the specifics. As we work to improve the performance of Annihilation, we will definitely consider the suggestions made in your question!

Given the recent changes to the Undying Rage mechanic and the future plans to tone down the AOE damage output of Rage, Marauders are potentially faced with limited options for competitive gameplay. Annihilation greatly suffers from the changes to Undying Rage, as self heals are essentially negated by the backend health cost. Implementing a 3rd party healing debuff with the original front end health cost, for instance, would provide a balance to Undying Rage while keeping Annihilation survivability intact (outside heals are lessened, self heals are not penalized). Furthermore, the changes proposed in patch 2.7 undermine the viability of Rage as an AOE specialization. By allowing Shockwaves originating from Force Crush to affect secondary targets, for instance, Rage can provide some potential for AOE damage. As is, Patch 2.7 threatens to transform Rage into a lackluster single target DPS spec. Meanwhile, Annihilation will continue to suffer from DPS ramp up/target switching issues, and diminished survivability due to the Undying Rage changes.

Given the redesign of Undying Rage and the proposed changes to Rage in patch 2.7, can the combat team comment on the future intentions for Marauder specializations, especially as they pertain to performance in competitive gameplay and to the developer comments (see below) regarding AOE based specs?
Even with the changes in Game Update 2.7, Rage/Focus looks to remain the burst damage leader among the Marauder/Sentinel specializations (and in PvE, the AoE damage remains unchanged). Meanwhile, Carnage/Combat doesn’t trail too far behind Rage/Focus in the burst damage department, while also providing more sustained damage – assuming the Marauder/Sentinel is able to stick to his/her enemy target long enough to get the job done. Annihilation/Watchman is meant to provide pressure with its sustained damage, but it might require a boost to get this job done properly. For example, we might consider giving Annihilation/Watchman the same kind of periodic damage protection we gave to Madness/Balance Assassins/Shadows and Sorcerers/Sages.

The changes made to Undying Rage/Guarded by the Force were necessary to bring Marauders/Sentinels down a notch and give other classes and enemy NPCs a fighting chance against a Marauder/Sentinel that is being backed by a healer. The negative impact these changes have had on Annihilation/Watchman self-healing is an unfortunate side effect. We might consider making a change to allow Annihilation/Watchman healing to thrive while Undying Rage/Guarded by the Force is active, but due to engine limitations it would probably not be possible to have it work as described in your question.
Eric Musco | Community Manager
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oofalong's Avatar


oofalong
03.11.2014 , 10:30 AM | #2
Disappointing that there was no specific mention of dotsmash...

EDIT: Actually, I find all of the answers disappointing. The Carnage response is working as intended, and the future of Marauders in PvP is no clearer.
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Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
You are correct Oofalong.

znihilist's Avatar


znihilist
03.11.2014 , 10:43 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
However, we did not plan to make Gore/Precision Slash harder to use by resetting its cooldown, because the Slaughter/Hand of Justice skill was primarily focused on resetting Vicious Throw’s/Dispatch’s cooldown rather than Gore’s/Precision Slash’s cooldown.
The answer felt incomplete, do the DEVs have any plans to fix the unintended gore CD reset ? Or are they satisfied with it ?

Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post

We do intend to make some changes to Annihilation/Watchman in order to improve its performance in both PvE and PvP, but we are not ready to discuss any of the specifics.
Can we at least get some sort of a idea when these changes will be proposed ?


Finally can we get a comment on dotsmash ?


All in all the answers are disappointing.
SWTOR: KotFE, Rise of the Ehh I guess I'll get used to it eventually
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Zeldoon
03.11.2014 , 10:59 AM | #4
Answers seem very vague and not much detail was put into them. A lot of "we may" do this.

That's sort of disappointing.

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WhiteOsprey
03.11.2014 , 11:00 AM | #5
After seeing the positive discussion between devs and the community in the sorc/wrath post i had high hopes for the answers to the mara/sent questions. Consider me disappointed. I don't feel we know anymore on your thinking when it comes to our class than we did yesterday except to say annihilation will get "some" changes at "some" later date.
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Atlanis's Avatar


Atlanis
03.11.2014 , 11:04 AM | #6
Seems like a whole lot of talking around the true thing: No we won´t buff you because we don´t play Sents/Maraus and we hate your star players because they kill us.

Lots of might and maybes, screw you Bioware you just gave the Gunslinger a 100% DMG Reduction for 3s on a 60s CD for 2.7........yeah right we know what you play. Its not a Sent, just say you want to kill the class, because you hate them

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dipstik
03.11.2014 , 11:16 AM | #7
i think the answers are as good as the questions. hybrid is only brought up in terms of sustained damage (how add switching has anything to do with sustained, i dont know... target switching is a burst dps job). If the questions spent more time diving into concerns and broadening the scope of concern, i think the answers would have been better. as is, the questions were filled with suggested solutions, which narrows focus.

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Kinudig
03.11.2014 , 11:35 AM | #8
ANGER! / he smiles / towering in / shiny metallic purple armor /
queen jealousy Envy / waits behind him /
her fiery green gown / stares at the grassy ground /
- J. Hendrix (check it out kids)

Some upset peepoles in here, but I can understand. Instant satisfaction is in demand, and hell, "isn't this a paid for service after all? Or not any more if I don't get what I want?" Ok fair enough if people feel that way...

But I've got to hand it to the team for even crossing this bridge, knowing that its not going to be a crowd-pleaser. Most importantly though is that they are listening to our constructive feedback!
We want changes in our favor and we want them now! But realize that changes in complex, interdependent systems takes careful thought, planning, and implementation. Producers of public materials *want to satisfy* their constituents. Dissatisfaction assuredly stings. But overall you've got to have a game that doesn't give undo advantage to a minority. (Yes, there will never be true balance, and I don't even wish for such utopia.)

Request to Devs: is there a discussion or explanation of what data you mine/analyze to make determinations such those surrounding the changes made or being proposed in this thread. How much does QQ actually play into your planning and decision making? [EDIT: to clarify, this is not a veiled accusation, but an opportunity for the Dev team to respond to a genuine question.]
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Ottoattack's Avatar


Ottoattack
03.11.2014 , 11:45 AM | #9
The gore question was answered very well. As someone who plays combat sentinel asking for better burst on gore/precision slash is silly. Not to mention, that most marauders in ranked grouped arenas play carnage and the results put marauder is number 1 dps currently in group ranked.

Annihilation answer was lacking in detail. But it is good they admit the spec is not working well.

"Even with the changes in Game Update 2.7, Rage/Focus looks to remain the burst damage leader among the Marauder/Sentinel specializations." Is that for real? This is 100% incorrect. In terms of burst carnage is light years ahead of rage. All what rage does is aoe pressure. In 2.7 there will be absolutely no reason the play rage what so ever.

Last "The changes made to Undying Rage/Guarded by the Force were necessary to bring Marauders/Sentinels down a notch and give other classes and enemy NPCs a fighting chance against a Marauder/Sentinel that is being backed by a healer." Let me get this straight, *** does NPC fighting chance mean? I am not against the nerf to UR in 2.5, but giving it to snipers on lower CD, with 100% immunity and no drawbacks contradicts every statement you ever made regarding UR and makes no sense for balance.

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Dedrayge
03.11.2014 , 11:51 AM | #10
If carnage's burst is just trailing behind rage's burst and has more sustained damage to provide pressure between said burst periods, why in the hell would I pick rage over carnage?

Rage provided more pressure with it's focus going into smash. However, this did cause a lot of problems in WZs when there happened to be 3+ rage warriors on one team. So, I definitely agree with the AoE damage rage could do being nerfed, I don't agree with the fact it's not getting increased single target damage to compensate. Quite frankly, the rage tree is still broken and has now had it's viability reduced. Even more so when we have the option to just run carnage.

Carnage shouldn't be just falling behind rage in terms of burst, there should be a noticeable difference in the burst rage can do over carnage.

The undying rage change no longer makes sense with the changes given to snipers...Evasion for 2.7 will **** all over undying rage and snipers tend to not be in the heat of the action like marauders are. It's more, sit back and pick off warriors or any stealth that dares come out of hiding. Especially while they are pre-occupied trying to kill the healer who needs to die before they can even bother with a sniper.

Happy they are going to show some love to annihilation...But I'm just seeing logic fail in these answers that completely forget about what they are giving other classes or what other classes currently have...


Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post

As for the difficulties presented by various forms of crowd control, that is intended. We will continue to keep our eyes on Marauder/Sentinel and how their overall performance is in PvP. If we feel that they are being outperformed by many of the other classes, we might consider having Gore/Precision Slash grant a few charges with a longer duration that get consumed when damage is dealt to help Marauders/Sentinels use Gore/Precision Slash to its full effect.
You know, you could always give carnage those charges at the cost of armour penetration. At least, against human players if it all possible.

Another suggestion...Go play the live game with a bloody marauder...Internal testing is too controlled and lacks the variables needed to get a real sense of how the class plays. Also, just looking at data will never give one the true experience needed to make class adjustments.

FYI, marauders and juggs tend to be the first one's with stuns thrown up their asses until the cows come home...Especially considering stuns can only be used from 10m now...




They are working with sorcerers more due to the black lack that came with the first set of sorcerer questions. This means we need a parody music video as well if they are to listen and work with us.
No plans for PvP...So, I have no plans to invest anymore money into this game.

Waiting for Wildstar