Kaggath Tournament Finals - Ascending Empire vs Droid Supremacy

STAR WARS: The Old Republic
Kaggath Tournament Finals - Ascending Empire vs Droid Supremacy

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tunewalker

03.06.2014 , 07:10 AM \| #201	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling Animal movements? Life experiences? This is pure conjecture unless you can provide some examples of this being useful in a battle situation. I've never seen any strategies employed that do not first and foremost rely on information concerning the strength and weaknesses of the opponent and their own capabilities. Not the gait of a Tauntaun. Anyway as I said, you can't create something out of nothing. All strategies are based on the information at hand. No strategy is completely abstract from the battlefield. For example TX-20 during the Battle of Ryloth used the natives as a human shield, rounding them up and gathering them around the anti-aircraft cannons in an extremely intelligent and creative manuevre. Exploiting the resources he had available and the known weaknesses of the enemy. He did not turn to page 112 in his tactical manual where it reads, "use twi'leks to shield cannons." He made it up on the spot. G0-T0 himself went above and beyond his programming and employed creative thought to fufil his primary objective. Nowhere in his programming did it say anything about how to take control of criminal organisation and manipulate/intimidate humans with fake holographic projectors. G0-T0 took the initiative and did that himself based on the resources he had at hand. If that is not creative thinking then I don't know what is. Nor did it anywhere state how to hack into and control droids for his own end or provide him with a textbook strategy as to how to prevent the remote from reactivating the Mass Shadow Generator. Another unique move from G0-T0. Essentially you are trying to claim that no droid has every done anything that was originally, that's a farcical claim. There are countless examples, heck I bring up what Warren did about R2-D2 spraying the B2 battle droids to slip them up, nowhere in his manual did it note that as a use of his oil slick, its certainly not designed as a weapon. And yeah, he accidentally set them on fire. LOL. And finally, G0-T0 managed events on both a mirco and macro scale. For example when he outmaneuvered Visquis' attempt to destroy him. When he had the Jedi Exile hunted down, when he manipulated members of the Ebon Hawk crew. He didn't just manage the Exchange's finances. He had to respond and adapt to the unpredictable. going to just make my point about the last point clear. That is micro manageing 1 thing at a time... not thousands at a time. He has shown massive Macro management skills with minimal Micro managing skills. If you want me to cover the rest you will have to wait a few weeks.

Beniboybling

03.06.2014 , 07:16 AM \| #202	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker going to just make my point about the last point clear. That is micro manageing 1 thing at a time... not thousands at a time. He has shown massive Macro management skills with minimal Micro managing skills. If you want me to cover the rest you will have to wait a few weeks. G0-T0 as a tactical planning droid was designed to mulit-task, he was designed to process swathes of information simaltenously. If he can micro-manage, he can micro-manage multiple tasks with ease. That and he's very independent, he does things all by himself.
"No game of dejarik can be won without pawns... and this may prove to be a very long game." ~ Kreia Darth Traya: Waiting in the Dark& Part Two: A Fragile Alliance

Warren-Stride

03.06.2014 , 07:33 AM \| #203	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by From Merriam-Webster Dictionary "Tactician: someone who is good at making plans in order to achieve particular goals" I fail to see how G0-T0 is not a tactician in every sense of the word. But can we all be reasonable adults and compromise? G0-T0 is controlling a droid army. He's done this before from the Visionary. Would G0-T0 be good at commanding biological troops? Probably not. Would Obi-wan be good at commanding droids? Probably not. G0-T0 and the AE leadership are on two different scales. We can't compare their use of tactics because they're commanding two completely different forces. Garm, Mothma, Obi-wan, and Plo Koon are great at commanding bioloogicals. But G0-T0 is also great at commanding other droids. I'm not trying to say that G0-T0 is better than anyone, because that comparison is unfair when consider what the tactics are being applied to: biologicals or droids. That being said, G0-T0 is perfectly equipped to handle controlling his droid armies. As Silenceo pointed out, being a droid and commanding other droids has some distinct advantages, such as lightning-quick reflex times, no decision delay, and instant communication. That's not to discredit the fact that biologicals have other advantages as well. I don't think anyone is winning that either side is "better" than the other at tactics (whatever those are, the word has become pretty much meaningless). Instead, I think we should all just agree that each commander is good at commanding their own armies and move on.
~~ AiR ~~ What are you more afraid of? A weapon that could destroy you? Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

Aurbere

03.06.2014 , 09:52 AM \| #204	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling What have I told you about dismissing arguments out of hand? Nawthing...
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall "Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Aurbere

03.06.2014 , 10:31 AM \| #205	Quote
Tune, we can drop the argument. Let G0-T0 be a military tactician, we'll point out the flaws in this strategy later.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall "Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Selenial

03.06.2014 , 12:27 PM \| #206	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride I fail to see how G0-T0 is not a tactician in every sense of the word. But can we all be reasonable adults and compromise? G0-T0 is controlling a droid army. He's done this before from the Visionary. Would G0-T0 be good at commanding biological troops? Probably not. Would Obi-wan be good at commanding droids? Probably not. G0-T0 and the AE leadership are on two different scales. We can't compare their use of tactics because they're commanding two completely different forces. Garm, Mothma, Obi-wan, and Plo Koon are great at commanding bioloogicals. But G0-T0 is also great at commanding other droids. I'm not trying to say that G0-T0 is better than anyone, because that comparison is unfair when consider what the tactics are being applied to: biologicals or droids. That being said, G0-T0 is perfectly equipped to handle controlling his droid armies. As Silenceo pointed out, being a droid and commanding other droids has some distinct advantages, such as lightning-quick reflex times, no decision delay, and instant communication. That's not to discredit the fact that biologicals have other advantages as well. I don't think anyone is winning that either side is "better" than the other at tactics (whatever those are, the word has become pretty much meaningless). Instead, I think we should all just agree that each commander is good at commanding their own armies and move on. Well not really. We're comparing fleets here mainly, and fleet tactics are of huge importance. It's not who's better, it's who's the most effective.
We all live or die as Krayt wills, Stryfe. At his word, I would cut out my own heart. Or yours.

Selenial

03.06.2014 , 12:32 PM \| #207	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling Was he programmed to break away from the Republic and create a criminal empire? No, he overrode his programming and employed logical and creative thought to best achieve his primary objective. War is logical, humans that do stupid things that somehow work are lucky. If you'd like to provide some examples please do but the way I see it illogical actions 9/10 do not produce effective results in war. Any actions in war that may seem stupid and work will simply have a sound logical backing that less intelligent minds couldn't perceive. Or are you proposing that Jar Jar Binks is capable of outsmarting the best strategists out there? That Thrawn's successes were down to dumb luck? Really I think literature has just stuffed us up with romanticized nonsense that droids are somehow incapable of achieving that 'implacable human spark' so that we can't see the wood from the trees. Because G0-T0s intelligence = B1 Battle Droid lol. No, he was programmed to calculate a way the republic could be saved. He was designed and programmed to know Infrastructure, how to build it, how to maintain it. He couldnt save the republic abiding by it's rules, so he made a place without those rules to save it. Makes perfect sense. Ok fine: Battle of Crystophsis, using Trench's missiles against him. Purposefully risking a Jedi master against Grevious in order to save another Jedi Master. Blowing up a shuttle in the hopes that the ensuing explosion creates a distraction, even though there was no backup. And yes, Jar Jar has done multiple things to outsmart far abler people. IE, The Trade Federation leaders... He danced with plates I don't think I need to go on. You perhaps need to wonder why the Mythos is not full of great droids, and why Tarkin, Ackbar, Antilles and Thrawn weren't replaced with droids. And lol, I wasn't talking about B1's. I was talking about Droid GENERALS. You know, the droid equivalent of Jedi leaders? They were designed to be as powerful as possible, no matter the cost (it was inconsequential) and did not calculate the fact that Humans have a little thing called Empathy.
We all live or die as Krayt wills, Stryfe. At his word, I would cut out my own heart. Or yours.

Selenial

03.06.2014 , 02:39 PM \| #208	Quote
Btw Beni, G0-T0 was not some special case. He was a mass produced droid, just like the Droid Generals from the CIS, their circuitry is comparable.
We all live or die as Krayt wills, Stryfe. At his word, I would cut out my own heart. Or yours.

Beniboybling

03.06.2014 , 03:14 PM \| #209	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by Selenial No, he was programmed to calculate a way the republic could be saved. He was designed and programmed to know Infrastructure, how to build it, how to maintain it. He couldnt save the republic abiding by it's rules, so he made a place without those rules to save it. Makes perfect sense. Ok fine: Battle of Crystophsis, using Trench's missiles against him. Purposefully risking a Jedi master against Grevious in order to save another Jedi Master. Blowing up a shuttle in the hopes that the ensuing explosion creates a distraction, even though there was no backup. And yes, Jar Jar has done multiple things to outsmart far abler people. IE, The Trade Federation leaders... He danced with plates I don't think I need to go on. You perhaps need to wonder why the Mythos is not full of great droids, and why Tarkin, Ackbar, Antilles and Thrawn weren't replaced with droids. And lol, I wasn't talking about B1's. I was talking about Droid GENERALS. You know, the droid equivalent of Jedi leaders? They were designed to be as powerful as possible, no matter the cost (it was inconsequential) and did not calculate the fact that Humans have a little thing called Empathy. OK because sense is for some reason bad and not creative... Anyway: 1. How is this illogical? He used the fact that missiles could be tricked into firing at friendly targets against Trench, it was a very smart and well thought out move. A little risky perhaps, but it paid off. Logic right there. 2. I assume you are referring to the rescue of Eeth Koth. There is certainly something to be said about the whole operation being based on sentiment, and therefore wasting valuable resources. But of course Koth is a member of the Jedi Council and therefore valuable asset, so there is that. Regardless, they made the decision to save him, and by applying logic reasoned that Kenobi could be easily baited away from Koth by Kenobi so that Gallia and Anakin could rescue him. A smart move, and it worked well enough, I fail to see how this is illogical. 3. The situation here? All I can say is blowing up shuttles seems a logical way of drawing attention. 4. And yes, there are many incidents where by sheer luck Jar Jar has taken down swathes of forces, which is why it was humorous. But it was luck, not strategy, that got him out of those situations. The irrelevant plates debacle aside. Please don't, it was a ridiculous claim to make, that effective strategy can somehow be founded on idiocy. I've already addressed this point, to be brief all supremely intelligent droids went rogue. Regardless I never claimed droid superiority over these individuals. Only that G0-T0 is capable of creative thought and effective strategy. As was I, forgive the mistake.
"No game of dejarik can be won without pawns... and this may prove to be a very long game." ~ Kreia Darth Traya: Waiting in the Dark& Part Two: A Fragile Alliance

Beniboybling

03.06.2014 , 03:16 PM \| #210	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by Selenial Btw Beni, G0-T0 was not some special case. He was a mass produced droid, just like the Droid Generals from the CIS, their circuitry is comparable. So all droids that are mass produced are the same? Dat logic.
"No game of dejarik can be won without pawns... and this may prove to be a very long game." ~ Kreia Darth Traya: Waiting in the Dark& Part Two: A Fragile Alliance

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