Kaggath Tournament Finals - Ascending Empire vs Droid Supremacy

STAR WARS: The Old Republic
Kaggath Tournament Finals - Ascending Empire vs Droid Supremacy

Page 19 of 74 « First < 9 17 18 19 20 21 29 69 > Last »

Selenial

03.06.2014 , 02:18 AM \| #181	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling Honestly to an extent their are rules concerning everything, or rather consequences. It is just another variable in a droid's mind. Nothing more. Just like it is in ours when you come down to it. You can do X because Y. You get the idea. EverytHing G0-T0 did he was programmed to do. He was given statistics on the republic, criminal empires, planets etc to calculate a means to save the republic, and he took the logical choice. War is anything but logical, humans do stupid things that somehow work, and they use the force which a droid can never calculate. And I'm not almighty about B1's. a Tactical droids designed for naval warfare were outsmarted by Jedi daily... I don't see G0-T0 as Being much better.
We all live or die as Krayt wills, Stryfe. At his word, I would cut out my own heart. Or yours.

Beniboybling

03.06.2014 , 03:52 AM \| #182	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker Computers are near equal to top chess champions. They dont always win. And no computer in the history of star wars or in human history has ever out done a person in WAR tactics, because the variables are much larger and no computer has ever been able to do it. GO-TO has not shown any tactical ability. He has shown the ability to run a business. A criminal business, but a business none the less. He is intelligent, but he is not creative. A droid can never create an original piece of art. War is noted as much logic as it is ART. He may get the logical point but the artistic, creative side of things are an impossibilty for him as it is with all droid. Creativity has been part of what has allowed people like Garm over come all kinds of people before. At no point in Star Wars nor at any point in real life, has a computer been more "intelligent" then the human brain. But i doubt there is any convincing you of this matter, as I have already pointed out several instances of People massively outdoing droids and the only response is "its not GO-TO" well here is a novel thought for you, its not GO-TO because GO-TO was never placed into those positions. GO-TO has as much experience beating humans in tactical world of war as any other droid out there. AKA None, and yet we are all just assuming he can. I really wish we would start to use precedence for this stuff rather than making unfounded assumptions about characters abilities, based solely on intelligent moves that have no relation to the argument at hand. Chess champions used to be able to beat computers, now they are failing and people are starting to release its futile to challenge them. Regardless its merely proof that a computer and a human can go toe-to-toe in the field of strategy. An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, Tunewalker. We cannot assume that simple because G0-T0 has not been in a war scenario that he cannot operate in a war scenario. War is not some special plane of existence, its just strategy and planning with guns involved. G0-T0 is a planning droid, he processes information, and organizes and employs entities to produce the most effective results. All he needs is an understanding of the mechanics of war and he can apply this to battle. You've failed to provide evidence as to why he cannot. That is a precedent, you just don't like it. BUt lets refute some fallacies in your argument: No droid has ever outdone a person in war tactics: ridiculous, T-series tactical droids were deployed across the galaxy during the Clone Wars often without the luxury of biological commanders who were only assigned to the most important missions. If these droids were not capable of winning the CIS would not have lasted in the war. Heck during the Sky Battle of Quell it was the tactical droid as opposed to the Jedi General who was losing, after being outmaneuvered. War is like art: perhaps according to the romanticized novel, but in reality? I don't think so. Art is one of the few things droids likely cannot understand due to its illogicality. Art has no set goal and not definitive means of achieving it, you do whatever you want and produce whatever outcome you want and it doesn't matter. War couldn't be any more different, you can't afford to make mistakes and there are right and wrong ways of doing things within the set parameters of the possible. Being artistic in war would lead to sacrificing advantages for the sake of frivolity and sentimentality. Not good. Droids are not capable of creativity: first the word creativity is an empty phrase, its merely another word for the unorthodox, and I've already demonstrated how a droid is capable of unorthodox thought. G0-T0 and strategy droids can formulate "original" strategies just fine. They combine variables to fashion the most logical course of action, this may be a simple move, or it may be something far more complex and intricate. But as long as these "creative tactics" are firmly based in logic, a droid is not incapable of performing them, not incapable at all. And in turn can be predicted. Again you cannot create something out of nothing, in all original strategies will be a series of actions that said command has not simply 'invented' - actions that exist and are possible within the parameters of reality. G0-T0 took his original programming and attempted to achieve his goal in a completely different way than intended, he decided to take control of a criminal empire and use that to assist the Republic, breaking free of the various parameters and rules that Republic had set out before him to pursue the most logical and effective action. Really I can't state this enough, when it comes down to matters of logic a computer is no less capable of being creative than a human. Its merely a question of intelligence. Don't creative invisible barriers without backing them up with logical explanation - and I don't mean examples of dumb droids - I mean actual logical reasons. G0-T0 is a planning droid, and with an understanding of the mechanics of war and the adequate processing power he can process the various variables and possible outcomes of a battlefield scenario to create multiple effective strategies, counter-strategies and backup plans in the space of a few seconds, and exectute these plans immediately. And with the appropriate data he can anaylse the weakenesses in his opponents and exploit them to maximum effect with whatever best suits his purposes that he has at his disposal. Strategy, effective strategy. Why are supercomputers not employed in tactical scenarios? Well G0-T0 seems to be the first of its kind and every droid deployed rebelled, supercomputers are too smart, they don't work for humans.
"No game of dejarik can be won without pawns... and this may prove to be a very long game." ~ Kreia Darth Traya: Waiting in the Dark& Part Two: A Fragile Alliance

Beniboybling

03.06.2014 , 03:58 AM \| #183	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by Selenial EverytHing G0-T0 did he was programmed to do. He was given statistics on the republic, criminal empires, planets etc to calculate a means to save the republic, and he took the logical choice. War is anything but logical, humans do stupid things that somehow work, and they use the force which a droid can never calculate. And I'm not almighty about B1's. a Tactical droids designed for naval warfare were outsmarted by Jedi daily... I don't see G0-T0 as Being much better. Was he programmed to break away from the Republic and create a criminal empire? No, he overrode his programming and employed logical and creative thought to best achieve his primary objective. War is logical, humans that do stupid things that somehow work are lucky. If you'd like to provide some examples please do but the way I see it illogical actions 9/10 do not produce effective results in war. Any actions in war that may seem stupid and work will simply have a sound logical backing that less intelligent minds couldn't perceive. Or are you proposing that Jar Jar Binks is capable of outsmarting the best strategists out there? That Thrawn's successes were down to dumb luck? Really I think literature has just stuffed us up with romanticized nonsense that droids are somehow incapable of achieving that 'implacable human spark' so that we can't see the wood from the trees. Because G0-T0s intelligence = B1 Battle Droid lol.
"No game of dejarik can be won without pawns... and this may prove to be a very long game." ~ Kreia Darth Traya: Waiting in the Dark& Part Two: A Fragile Alliance

Beniboybling

03.06.2014 , 03:59 AM \| #184	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere Yeah, don't use IG-88. At all. What have I told you about dismissing arguments out of hand?
"No game of dejarik can be won without pawns... and this may prove to be a very long game." ~ Kreia Darth Traya: Waiting in the Dark& Part Two: A Fragile Alliance

Beniboybling

03.06.2014 , 04:03 AM \| #185	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker But Ya I agree, as well as agree about downloading tactics and if he did download tactics its only ever going to be, the by the book conventional tactics nothing unorthodox as no programming is complex enough for some of that, but like i said going to go in circles . People have already made up their minds which side of the fence they are on in this regard. As I've already said G0-T0 does not need to download tactics, he can make his own. However I expect such an upgrade merely makes one able to analyze warfare and create tactics. As others have said no strategy survives contact with the enemy. And you can't really have programmed strategies without knowing the nature of your enemy and battlefield.
"No game of dejarik can be won without pawns... and this may prove to be a very long game." ~ Kreia Darth Traya: Waiting in the Dark& Part Two: A Fragile Alliance

tunewalker

03.06.2014 , 04:16 AM \| #186	Quote
There is a reason the book by Sun Tsu was called "Art of War" If you think there are no rules around making art you havent taken art classes before. Tell a computer to right a symphony even if it is programmed with all the rules of Music Theory, it cant. But a person can, I can. Those T droids that fought with the CiS, I would like to remind you that the CiS outnumbered the Clones by more then 100 to 1 if not 1,000 to 1 and were still fighting even with if not losing to the biologicals. Clearly the droid didnt out do a biological commander. Like I said you have your belief already and no amount of yick yacking is going to prove it one way or another. You will never convince me, and I will never convince you it is a waste of time. Seriously if you read my later posts you would have already seen I said this Some one never doing something is not proof that they CANT do it, nor is it proof that they can. As he has never we can not assume one way or another, I made the assumption of cant since no droid has outmanuevered people like Garm, mothma, Koon or Obi-wan, you made the assumption of can because...... GO-TO is smart in some areas so must be in all, after all if you asked a computer that specifically programmed to play chess to play Mahjong it would rule at it just like it did chess.... or hell tell it to Play star craft I am sure that Chess programmed computer could be competitive. Its smart enough after all and thats all that matters is processing power. SO lets just call GO-TO better then Thrawn and the greatest military commander of all time since he is droid that can conceive of every potential plan or back up plan the galaxy will ever have and get it over with. He is an infalible machine, with the ability for infinite calculations. And nothing any one says will convince you of other wise.

tunewalker

03.06.2014 , 04:21 AM \| #187	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling Was he programmed to break away from the Republic and create a criminal empire? No, he overrode his programming and employed logical and creative thought to best achieve his primary objective. War is logical, humans that do stupid things that somehow work are lucky. If you'd like to provide some examples please do but the way I see it illogical actions 9/10 do not produce effective results in war. Any actions in war that may seem stupid and work will simply have a sound logical backing that less intelligent minds couldn't perceive. Or are you proposing that Jar Jar Binks is capable of outsmarting the best strategists out there? That Thrawn's successes were down to dumb luck? Really I think literature has just stuffed us up with romanticized nonsense that droids are somehow incapable of achieving that 'implacable human spark' so that we can't see the wood from the trees. Because G0-T0s intelligence = B1 Battle Droid lol. Its not literature. Its fact. Supercomputers are no where near the level of AI as of right now to conduct war. No computer has been built yet that can understand every intercate moment of war or military tactics. It can not predict enemy responses nor can it predict the most effective response of allies. As of yet Computers are worthless for tactics in comparison to a living breathing human being. I am not talking about SCi-Fi here i am talking life. Computers just cant do it. Thus far Star Wars comps have shown the same, none have run a war better then biological Tactical geniuses like Garm, Obi-wan, or Koon, but like i said you have made up your mind, just say freeze put a stop to this debate, put your foot down and say its over and tell us what to debate next so we can go at it till you make up your mind on that subject.

tunewalker

03.06.2014 , 04:34 AM \| #188	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling Was he programmed to break away from the Republic and create a criminal empire? No, he overrode his programming and employed logical and creative thought to best achieve his primary objective. War is logical, humans that do stupid things that somehow work are lucky. If you'd like to provide some examples please do but the way I see it illogical actions 9/10 do not produce effective results in war. Any actions in war that may seem stupid and work will simply have a sound logical backing that less intelligent minds couldn't perceive. Or are you proposing that Jar Jar Binks is capable of outsmarting the best strategists out there? That Thrawn's successes were down to dumb luck? Really I think literature has just stuffed us up with romanticized nonsense that droids are somehow incapable of achieving that 'implacable human spark' so that we can't see the wood from the trees. Because G0-T0s intelligence = B1 Battle Droid lol. Just a note, Thrawns successes were based off his understanding of the psyche of individuals displayed to him through is understanding of *ART*. You know that thing a machine cant do, that thing a machine can never even begin to conceive. The key to his victories is the one thing a droid, no matter how complex, could ever hope to understand in any fashion and thus never duplicate.

Beniboybling

03.06.2014 , 04:41 AM \| #189	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker There is a reason the book by Sun Tsu was called "Art of War" If you think there are no rules around making art you havent taken art classes before. Tell a computer to right a symphony even if it is programmed with all the rules of Music Theory, it cant. But a person can, I can. Those T droids that fought with the CiS, I would like to remind you that the CiS outnumbered the Clones by more then 100 to 1 if not 1,000 to 1 and were still fighting even with if not losing to the biologicals. Clearly the droid didnt out do a biological commander. Like I said you have your belief already and no amount of yick yacking is going to prove it one way or another. You will never convince me, and I will never convince you it is a waste of time. Seriously if you read my later posts you would have already seen I said this Some one never doing something is not proof that they CANT do it, nor is it proof that they can. As he has never we can not assume one way or another, I made the assumption of cant since no droid has outmanuevered people like Garm, mothma, Koon or Obi-wan, you made the assumption of can because...... GO-TO is smart in some areas so must be in all, after all if you asked a computer that specifically programmed to play chess to play Mahjong it would rule at it just like it did chess.... or hell tell it to Play star craft I am sure that Chess programmed computer could be competitive. Its smart enough after all and thats all that matters is processing power. SO lets just call GO-TO better then Thrawn and the greatest military commander of all time since he is droid that can conceive of every potential plan or back up plan the galaxy will ever have and get it over with. He is an infalible machine, with the ability for infinite calculations. And nothing any one says will convince you of other wise. Some comparisons can be drawn between art and war in regards to creativity and skill. But they become different in terms of aesthetic quality. Art is designed to be aesthetically pleasing and this is something a computer cannot comprehend. I can assure you war is designed not aesthetically pleasing, it is logical and efficient. I was never taught rules in my art classes. I was taught how to use tools properly but nobody ever told be anything about right and wrong when it comes to what I produce. There are techniques yes, and there is convention yes, you might even be taught how to replicate others work or reality, but there are no objectives and no 'right' way of going about things. I reaffirm that there are no rules in art, and I'm sure any actual artist would affirm that truth. In the battle I pointed to the Republic had the advantage in terms of firepower, they still lost. And it seemed to be because the CIS outmaneuvered them. This is against a Jedi General we are talking about here, beaten by a droid. And that's just a standard tactical droid, who doesn't come close the G0-T0's advanced intelligence. But wait what?! As he has never we can not assume one way or another, I made the assumption of cant since no droid has outmanuevered people like Garm, mothma, Koon or Obi-wan. You made the assumption that G0-T0 cannot do X because droids have never done X. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Listen to yourself Tunewalker, you are using an absence of evidence i.e. no droid has ever done it, to back up your claims. This is ridiculous! you made the assumption of can because...... GO-TO is smart in some areas so must be in all, after all if you asked a computer that specifically programmed to play chess to play Mahjong it would rule at it just like it did chess.... or hell tell it to Play star craft I am sure that Chess programmed computer could be competitive. Its smart enough after all and thats all that matters is processing power. I'm not going to go in to how this is a straw man argument, but at the very least its proof that you accept my arguments have been backed up with some kind of theory, whereas yours is based on an absence of evidence. Anyway as I said, given that G0-T0 is a planning droid and war is about planning and strategy, all G0-T0 would need is an understanding of the mechanics of war to be effective in it. Remember war does not have rules like chess does, the only rules that apply are the rules of nature, and G0-T0 understands these. Basically he is adaptable. More straw man argument, and your common tendency to exaggerate in situations like these. I never said that G0-T0 can beat Thrawn, merely that he has the tactical ability to go toe-to-toe with human strategists and the ability to apply unorthodox strategy e.g. suicide runs, trench run defense etc. by exaggerating my argument you help no one. Least of all yourself.
"No game of dejarik can be won without pawns... and this may prove to be a very long game." ~ Kreia Darth Traya: Waiting in the Dark& Part Two: A Fragile Alliance

Beniboybling

03.06.2014 , 04:46 AM \| #190	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker Just a note, Thrawns successes were based off his understanding of the psyche of individuals displayed to him through is understanding of *ART*. You know that thing a machine cant do, that thing a machine can never even begin to conceive. The key to his victories is the one thing a droid, no matter how complex, could ever hope to understand in any fashion and thus never duplicate. And I question whether that is possible, considering that this is a fictional universe, I don't think its been done in real life. Anyway its not very relevant, Thrawn merely used art to gain an understanding of a cultures character i.e. are they aggressive, defensive, foolhardy etc. a droid can do that via other means. I agree that a lot about how one thinks can be discerned from art, perhaps. But this doesn't not prove that their are rules to art or that art is like war. All in demonstrates is that one's personality can effect the strategies one uses. Great.
"No game of dejarik can be won without pawns... and this may prove to be a very long game." ~ Kreia Darth Traya: Waiting in the Dark& Part Two: A Fragile Alliance

Page 19 of 74 « First < 9 17 18 19 20 21 29 69 > Last »

STAR WARS: The Old Republic

LucasArts, the LucasArts logo, STAR WARS and related properties are trademarks in the United States and/or in other countries of Lucasfilm Ltd. and/or its affiliates. © 2011-2012 Lucasfilm Entertainment Company Ltd. or Lucasfilm Ltd. All rights reserved. BioWare and the BioWare logo are trademarks of EA International (Studio and Publishing) Ltd. EA and the EA logo are trademarks of Electronic Arts Inc. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.

You are about to leave this website...

This page is not meant to keep you from following the link you've clicked on. It is just a warning that you are about to leave this website. To go to this page, click the link below.

If you do not wish to follow this link, simply
close this message.

The statements and opinions expressed on these websites are solely those of their respective authors and do not necessarily reflect the views, nor are they endorsed by Bioware, LucasArts, and its licensors do not guarantee the accuracy of, and are in no way responsible for any content on these websites.

Close Continue