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The REAL Most Powerful Revisited

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
The REAL Most Powerful Revisited

S_W_LeGenD's Avatar


S_W_LeGenD
02.11.2014 , 07:15 PM | #521
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker View Post
Well here is somethign to think about, every single person listed as a jedi Master in that Game have more then enough dice to preform 2-4 heroic level feats simultaneously. Thus if we do use those "stats" its exactly what I am talking about, just because some one can preform a skill such as that doesnt automatically put him over the others because according to the source thats being used..... even Masters such as Qui-gon could do it with a certain amount of ease as long as they know the force power.
It is not wise to use information of this kind blindly. What we can do is focus on important information like the act of detoxifying toxin:-

Alcohol = Very Easy
Poison = Moderate
Virulent Poison = Very Difficult
Neurotoxin = Heroic

Now this information clarifies to us that how much effort is involved in performing these actions and what level of command of the Force is of a wielder in this department. In this manner, we can prevent personal bias from clouding our judgments when evaluating feats of characters in comparative topics.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.11.2014 , 07:16 PM | #522
Quote: Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD View Post
As surprising as this may sound, authorities themselves do not ignore stats when acquainting themselves with the abilities of a character as apparent from the example of Leeland Chee:

"But stats themselves aren't created randomly; they are based on what is already known. As such, we can always look to them as a basis when writing books. I often look to RPG stats to see for example, what type of Force powers a character may have. Or if we haven't determined the stats of a particular vehicle, we can look to RPG stats for a basis of comparison."

If an information is valuable for discussion at hand, I don't see why it cannot be factored-in.
Because we will get bogged down with game mechanics rather than simply discussing what powers and abilities a character has.

That, and I don't want to.
Added Chapter 41 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

S_W_LeGenD's Avatar


S_W_LeGenD
02.11.2014 , 07:20 PM | #523
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Because we will get bogged down with game mechanics rather than simply discussing what powers and abilities a character has.

That, and I don't want to.
This is just an additional avenue of information for evaluating character strengths. Their is no need to get involved in DICE ROLL and NUMBERS stuff and all that. Important stuff to note is that what are prerequisites of a power and how much effort is needed to perform an action. This is all.

Sourcebooks provide us with some solid information in this respect instead of us being left to decide on our own that which actions should rank higher in our eyes.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
02.11.2014 , 07:22 PM | #524
Quote: Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD View Post
It is not wise to use information of this kind blindly. What we can do is focus on important information like the act of detoxifying toxin:-

Alcohol = Very Easy
Poison = Moderate
Virulent Poison = Very Difficult
Neurotoxin = Heroic

Now this information clarifies to us that how much effort is involved in performing these actions and what level of command of the Force is of a wielder in this department. In this manner, he prevent personal bias from clouding our judgments when evaluating feats of characters in comparative topics.
Yes and you will note that almost every Jedi Master has 9 Control or higher as it only requires all 6's with 5D to succeed at a heroic task a Jedi with 9 dice can do 2 heroic tasks and still succeed at both only needing an everage of 4 on each of the Dice. So I am not exagurating anything, higher level masters have 12 dice 4 tasks would put them on the same level as the other 3 means it would be even easier for them, so on and so forth. Ultimately its pointless to use the stats to really judge these characters for this reason, but I am sure Beni will see that so I think I am done for now besides I want to go see my little cousins have fun with out me for a while guys .

S_W_LeGenD's Avatar


S_W_LeGenD
02.11.2014 , 07:25 PM | #525
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker View Post
Yes and you will note that almost every Jedi Master has 9 Control or higher as it only requires all 6's with 5D to succeed at a heroic task a Jedi with 9 dice can do 2 heroic tasks and still succeed at both only needing an everage of 4 on each of the Dice. So I am not exagurating anything, higher level masters have 12 dice 4 tasks would put them on the same level as the other 3 means it would be even easier for them, so on and so forth. Ultimately its pointless to use the stats to really judge these characters for this reason, but I am sure Beni will see that so I think I am done for now besides I want to go see my little cousins have fun with out me for a while guys .
No need to get involved in DICE ROLL and NUMBERS stuff. Just use information that is relevant for evaluation of powers like I did. In short, keep the evaluation process simple.

We don't need to figure out the capabilities of lets say random Jedi Master with this kind of information. We have canon information to help us pick candidates for topics like these and we can just use information with which we can know who is better then who in which respect.

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
02.11.2014 , 07:28 PM | #526
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Game stats are N-canon yes, so..it's rather pointless to use them, they are considered game mechanics.



Even without all that...come on really Beni? We should take what they have actual done and compare it within actual novels/comics and so forth, not rely on RPG dice stats or whatever you wanna call em.
Couldn't be more agreed.
"The Dark Jedi are in many ways more dangerous than the Sith."
Republic Justice

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
02.11.2014 , 11:26 PM | #527
Quote: Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD View Post
No need to get involved in DICE ROLL and NUMBERS stuff. Just use information that is relevant for evaluation of powers like I did. In short, keep the evaluation process simple.

We don't need to figure out the capabilities of lets say random Jedi Master with this kind of information. We have canon information to help us pick candidates for topics like these and we can just use information with which we can know who is better then who in which respect.
My point with the numbers is a Master is a Master for a reason they are capable of feats that would be known as Heroic lvl feats and thats what being a master means. If you can make it onto a Most powerful list you should be capable of Heroic Level feats on all three aspects of the Force, thus noting that a Sith or a Jedi can do heroic level Force feats is just as relevant as the discussions we were having before since everyone on these lists should be capable of heroic level feats.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.12.2014 , 12:52 PM | #528
Quote: Originally Posted by S_W_LeGenD View Post
I did not stated that those Dark Council members destroyed the Citadel with a simple wave of a hand.

Those two Dark Council members may have inflicted massive damage to the foundations of the building with their powers while dueling each other which eventually led to collapse of the building. I understand the "powerbases factor" but the issue in this particular case is that other Dark Council members also got involved in this event and killed the original two responsible for destruction of the building, this would not have been possible in presence of "army level powerbases" of the Dark Council members responsible for destruction otherwise some of the other Dark Council members could have ended up dead too during this event. This is not unbelievable development in the light of events featuring Bane and Exal Kressh.

  • Bane managed to collapse a building in Lehon or portion of it by shattering its foundations with a single powerful wave of energy.
  • A confrontation between Exal Kressh and Thanaton onboard a space station ended with the destruction of the gigantic structure, this duel was also very violent and no powerbases were involved from either side.

I am not asserting that feats of such magnitude are easy to pull off, they are obviously not. My intended point is that Sith Emperor is even more powerful then such powerhouses and can relatively do BETTER in the matters of destroying the surroundings, if in their shoes.


A positive step nonetheless.


I recall that when Sidious got knocked out on the Death Star, it took him a year to acquire a suitable host to posses and this too with the aid of other Sith sprits. Afterwards, it took him 5 additional years to recover his strength.


I am not exaggerating! You can check some information details here.


Mara collapsed some part of the ceiling upon him? This is the trap, right? This is not a trap, she used her powers to undermine her adversary to make the best use of her surroundings to her advantage like any smart individual would do. I recall that Malgus once found himself in similar situation and he did well even though he was not in good shape so its not like Caedus pulled off something unique in this clash (I do accept the part that an ordinary Force-user would have got punked in this duel but Caedus was not much like Malgus).

More importantly, you are making a serious miscalculation about capabilities of Emperor in this respect. I don't think that Mara can undermine Emperor even in this setting, Emperor can easily prevent any attempt to crush him beneath the debris and proceed to punk opposition with his powers, he also have the option to break Mara with just his mental powers and this feat doesn't requires any setting to work. Keep in mind that Emperor is lot more battle-tested then both Caedus and Mara, possibly even combined. This is the guy who can defeat Revan, Meetra and Scourge simultaneously in close-range combat situation, think wisely when you make an assumption.


Caedus's effectiveness not just depends upon his own skills but also on the setting of the duel and decisions of his opposition. If opposition made a poor judgment, confrontation is not likely to end well against such a powerful Force-user.

Sith Emperor is pure power duelist, he just eliminates or forces any kind of opposition to submission with a range of overwhelming powers that are not setting dependent. This is swift and decisive approach to end a conflict before it gets prolonged with martial actions and such. Emperor had wisely honed his talents in this manner.

Put Caedus in shoes of Emperor and I don't think he would have lasted as long or pulled off his feats. This is not because that Caedus is not talented all that but he doesn't have skills and power to replicate Emperor. In-fact, the Jedi Strike Team that attempted to arrest Emperor would have succeeded against majority of foes including Caedus in the Emperor's shoes. This makes sense because Caedus' combative tactics would have favored that Strike Team's approach towards combat and this Strike Team was made up of most powerful Jedi of that era with Hero of Tython being among the most powerful Force-users of the mythos himself.


I have not stated that Luke was inferior duelist but that this was also a strong point of Caedus and this is why this duel ended up in a brutal brawl. Luke had the options to punk Caedus with his Force powers but for some odd reason chose not to.


Correctiion: Luke, in lore, is not the most powerful Force-user the galaxy has ever seen. This is fanon assumption. I know that whole chosen one stuff but actual canon revelations concerning Luke are as follows:

"Luke Skywalker, the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy, was being accused for the millions of deaths the second civil war supplied?"

"Luke Skywalker is still the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy. I think we should assume he has a plan."

"...but rather a fight with one of the most powerful Jedi in history"

This being said, duel between Luke and Caedus did not end up with Luke resorting to his Force powers to overwhelm his opposition like he did in many cases. If Luke had chosen to do so, he would have punked Caedus as he demonstrated earlier by putting Caedus in a choke-hold which Caedus couldn't shrug off.


I am being objective and I have noted all abilities of Caedus.
1. The sources state that the Dark Council executed the pair after the Kaggath had ended in stalemate, so the would have been no such danger. We have no reason to suspect they did not bring their powerbases to bear

I don't deny that it is possible that it was within their power to cause structural damage to the building. But there is a difference between structural damage and complete annihilation, destruction neither on Bane's or Kressh' level are of a necessary output. Noting that the damage caused by the duel between Kressh and Thanaton itself was minimal.

Altogether we are assuming far too much, there is not even evidence to suggest they used the Force, and no matter how logical that may be, it still remains pure assumption and hardly grounds for ascribing the Sith Emperor telekinetic powers, which is why I intend to continue to exclude it from all of my analysis on the Sith Emperor.

And I strongly suggest you do the same.

3. As I said, we shall see.

4. I own the SWTORE and it fails to define his abilities in any level of detail. Those accolades you provided are merely acknowledgements of general power, they lack any level of specificity and are not enough to make comparison.

5. I'm not interested in having this debate. I've demonstrated that Mara is not powerful enough to overcome Caedus in a straight up duel where exceptional circumstances are not involved. As I said I am concerned with objective demonstrations of Force ability as opposed to highly circumstantial confrontations.

6. It is self-evident. Noting that your arguments that assert Darth Sidious and the Sith Emperor as superior to Luke Skywalker are refuted by canonical statements made by George Lucas himself, of which you are aware. But I don't expect you to let go of your own fanonical and frankly absurd theory that contradicts even more material laid down by Lucas that Sidious and the Sith Emperor are someone on another plain of being of superior power.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
02.12.2014 , 12:58 PM | #529
I would like to propose Vader over Exar Kun in Saber skill.

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
02.12.2014 , 01:07 PM | #530
Don't expect this debate to ever end if this argument just keeps going.

Seriously I only see one person challenging the current topic.

Sorry but Plagueis is the second most powerful Sith Lord of the Rule of Two, the Sith Emperor severely lacks in certain areas.

The grand comparison to be made over-all is the debate between who were the better type of Sith: Banite Sith that concentrated on internal power or the older Sith Lords that focused primarily on external ways of gaining or boosting their current power.

The Banite Sith are clearly the most practical and impressive of the two.
"The Dark Jedi are in many ways more dangerous than the Sith."
Republic Justice