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Chrisweaver's Avatar


Chrisweaver
02.07.2014 , 05:08 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by MaximilianPower View Post
Might be a little OT - but this...a thousand times, this. Usually it only takes 2-3 logouts to get the missions I want, but damn it, it's still irritating. Absolutely no need for it. It's not like there are, say, 50 different missions for 51-55 slicing. That would be cumbersome to sift through every time. But there are, what, 9 missions total? And we get to see 5 or 6 each time? Just show the whole freaking list and stop wasting my time.

/rant
There is a simple way to do this if you are on the fleef. All it takes to get the mission you want is to go to a loading screen. Send a random companion on a mission and then head to your ship. Once you are on your ship your new missions will appear. I do this with my slicers.
Bibidi -Sorcerer 60 Végeta-Maurader 57
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psandak's Avatar


psandak
02.07.2014 , 05:42 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by MaximilianPower View Post
Just responding to the portion of your post quoted above: I understand, and upon reflection, I actually do the same in some situations. I have eight alts right now, but I'm only actively playing/leveling two of them. Those two are both scavengers (and UT; one armormech, one cybertech, all 450). I don't do the logout dance when I'm playing those characters, because as you said, in short order I'll change areas and the list will reset anyway. Or I'll simply run what's presented to me, knowing that I'll get what I want later.

However, with the other alts, I just want to get them working on the most potentially profitable missions ASAP - so I can get back to actually playing the other guys. My two slicing 450's fall into this category. I do the logout dance with them constantly. I'm sure I'll get back to playing the other alts regularly at some point, at which point the dancing will likely cease for them, but for now, I feel like any other strategy would just be a waste of my time. I mean, I'm not going to have them run a mission just for the sake of running a mission...and if they're not actively out there working on, say, Unsliceable? - then they aren't doing anything for me at all.
That's where you and I differ: I never do the relog dance...it is simply not worth it to me. The process of going through all six of my characters takes me about 15 minutes:
  1. login
  2. collect sales and expired item from mail
  3. post (new and expired) crafted items to GTN
  4. check my listings to see what I am missing
  5. check GTN for deals on materials
  6. start crafting to back fill
  7. send remaining companions on missions
  8. logout
  9. rinse and repeat
And the last thing I want to do is spend another 15 minutes doing the relog dance (for me each logout and back on takes 30 seconds to a minute; 5 year old computer will do that).

In addition, because I am actively crafting items in all six crafting skills (one on each character), I rarely need five "good" missions per character. Add to that, that I need all materials anyway and I am never looking for one mission in particular. In fact, on my slicers (I have two at 450) I am more likely to run Credit Drain over Unsliceable, because I want the discovered missions more than TRs (I have 2.5 stacks of TRs sitting because I only use them for myself and friends/guildies [and I don't charge them]).

Lastly, when I am calculating my cost to craft, I invariably round up, because I am assuming a worst case scenario: all gathering materials cost 500/unit (running missions), and all blue mission materials cost 250/unit (buying off the GTN). Purple materials vary by skill and I don't use them often for selling anyway.

Is this less than ideal? Yes. Am I losing out on credits by not fully optimizing the missions I run? Probably. Do I care? No. Why? Because I would rather spend 15 more minutes actually playing the game than relog dancing. Another example of the interchangeable nature of time and money in MMOs; it is costing me credits to be able to play longer.


Quote: Originally Posted by MaximilianPower View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by eartharioch View Post
The real question is how would you react if BW was able to close the re-login exploit (which, no matter victimless it may appear, it is) and didn't change the mission RNG?

FYI, I don't think it's a big deal, but it is an exploit. I don't think whatever damage being done by the current exploiters justifies spending any effort to address it, but if effort does get spent, I would rather it be to keep the system and close the loop hole, not make the loop hole unnecessary by changing the system for what IMO would be the worse.
Is that really an exploit? Seems like a stretch to call it that. Changing areas has the same effect as logging out. So if, instead of logging out, I stood in front of the elevator on fleet and clicked the button repeatedly, going from, say, the cartel bazaar to main level and back over and over - would that still be an exploit? Where do you draw the line between "exploit" and "working as intended"?

I'm not even sure I'd call it a loophole. It's just a different method of refreshing the mission list. If BW didn't want us refreshing the list, they wouldn't give us multiple options to do so, would they?
I classify the "relog/change area dance" as something BW probably did not intend to work as it does, but the effect is so minor that it would be a waste of resources to "fix" what is probably a very complex "problem."

eartharioch's Avatar


eartharioch
02.07.2014 , 05:45 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by MaximilianPower View Post
Is that really an exploit? Seems like a stretch to call it that. Changing areas has the same effect as logging out. So if, instead of logging out, I stood in front of the elevator on fleet and clicked the button repeatedly, going from, say, the cartel bazaar to main level and back over and over - would that still be an exploit? Where do you draw the line between "exploit" and "working as intended"?

I'm not even sure I'd call it a loophole. It's just a different method of refreshing the mission list. If BW didn't want us refreshing the list, they wouldn't give us multiple options to do so, would they?
Yes, it's really an exploit (as is changing zones just to reset the list). If BW wanted people to always have access to all missions, that's what they would have coded. They wouldn't have bothered spending time using RNG to generate a subset of those missions if it was intended for you just to "manually" refresh the list when you didn't get what you wanted.

Also, if you read Khevar's post, he clearly identifies that [part of] his profits come from his spending extra time to log out and back in. Unless you think that the devs consider "repeatedly logging out and back in" as part of the intended crafting experience, you *know* it's an exploit.
Q: What did the five fingers say to the face?
A: It's a SLAP!

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
02.07.2014 , 07:02 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by eartharioch View Post
...

Also, if you read Khevar's post, he clearly identifies that [part of] his profits come from his spending extra time to log out and back in. Unless you think that the devs consider "repeatedly logging out and back in" as part of the intended crafting experience, you *know* it's an exploit.
Interesting. I've never particularly thought of it as an exploit, though I can see why one could argue that it is, but you'd have to guess at the developers intentions to make your case.

If the system were changed so that:
a) The list were still abbreviated, and
b) The list couldn't be changed without actually running a mission

I'd adapt, for sure. It'd be a bummer, but not the end of the world.

MaximilianPower's Avatar


MaximilianPower
02.07.2014 , 07:07 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by eartharioch View Post
Yes, it's really an exploit (as is changing zones just to reset the list). If BW wanted people to always have access to all missions, that's what they would have coded. They wouldn't have bothered spending time using RNG to generate a subset of those missions if it was intended for you just to "manually" refresh the list when you didn't get what you wanted.

Also, if you read Khevar's post, he clearly identifies that [part of] his profits come from his spending extra time to log out and back in. Unless you think that the devs consider "repeatedly logging out and back in" as part of the intended crafting experience, you *know* it's an exploit.
I think BW's intention was to present a randomized list of available crafting missions, which changes at each new area. I don't think that's in question. I don't understand why intentionally changing zones in order to reset the list would be considered an exploit, while "unintentionally" resetting said list is entirely kosher. Same exact experience, identical results, motivated by different goals.

Seems to me this is more of a semantic issue than anything else. Out of curiosity, can you think of any other comparable exploits in the game? That is, a mechanic working as intended, but leveraged in a way that wasn't intended by the developers. I'm wondering if I would agree with that terminology in those other cases.
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What did you kill
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MaximilianPower's Avatar


MaximilianPower
02.07.2014 , 07:24 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by psandak View Post
That's where you and I differ: I never do the relog dance...it is simply not worth it to me. The process of going through all six of my characters takes me about 15 minutes:
  1. login
  2. collect sales and expired item from mail
  3. post (new and expired) crafted items to GTN
  4. check my listings to see what I am missing
  5. check GTN for deals on materials
  6. start crafting to back fill
  7. send remaining companions on missions
  8. logout
  9. rinse and repeat
And the last thing I want to do is spend another 15 minutes doing the relog dance (for me each logout and back on takes 30 seconds to a minute; 5 year old computer will do that).

In addition, because I am actively crafting items in all six crafting skills (one on each character), I rarely need five "good" missions per character. Add to that, that I need all materials anyway and I am never looking for one mission in particular. In fact, on my slicers (I have two at 450) I am more likely to run Credit Drain over Unsliceable, because I want the discovered missions more than TRs (I have 2.5 stacks of TRs sitting because I only use them for myself and friends/guildies [and I don't charge them]).

Lastly, when I am calculating my cost to craft, I invariably round up, because I am assuming a worst case scenario: all gathering materials cost 500/unit (running missions), and all blue mission materials cost 250/unit (buying off the GTN). Purple materials vary by skill and I don't use them often for selling anyway.

Is this less than ideal? Yes. Am I losing out on credits by not fully optimizing the missions I run? Probably. Do I care? No. Why? Because I would rather spend 15 more minutes actually playing the game than relog dancing. Another example of the interchangeable nature of time and money in MMOs; it is costing me credits to be able to play longer.
Indeed, it sounds like the difference is that I'm more focused on optimization. Like I said earlier, this is all fairly new to me; my "business" is fairly small-time, limited mostly to the augment market (kits and the augments themselves), and a few CT items. So the scope and scale of my sales are undoubtedly minor compared to yours. For that reason, I feel the need to maximize the little bit of business have, hence the relog dance to ensure I'm not leaving anything on the table.

Is it necessary? Certainly not. And I'm sure if/when I reach a higher sales plateau, this will be less of a concern for me. But for now, it seems like my best path to maximize profitability, which is more important when you don't have a lot of resources to work with.
Hey, Barsen'thor Bill
What did you kill
Barsen'thor Bill

Zuckerkorn Spiderzuck Bøbløblaw EddieBrøck TøbiasFünke MaximilianPower
Jedi Covenant

100% GSF cheevs

eartharioch's Avatar


eartharioch
02.07.2014 , 10:29 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by MaximilianPower View Post
I think BW's intention was to present a randomized list of available crafting missions, which changes at each new area. I don't think that's in question. I don't understand why intentionally changing zones in order to reset the list would be considered an exploit, while "unintentionally" resetting said list is entirely kosher. Same exact experience, identical results, motivated by different goals.

Seems to me this is more of a semantic issue than anything else. Out of curiosity, can you think of any other comparable exploits in the game? That is, a mechanic working as intended, but leveraged in a way that wasn't intended by the developers. I'm wondering if I would agree with that terminology in those other cases.
1) I'm not sure what you mean by a 'semantic' issue. An exploit is an exploit, there's no such thing as "an exploit in name only". Intent is difficult (impossible) to prove 100%, but we can easily infer intent by observing people's actions. If your actions serve only to reset the mission list, you are exploiting.

2) Whether or not that exploit is worth BW doing anything about is a different story. In this case, running a single tier one mission barely (if at all) takes longer than logging out and back in or rezoning, so I don't see it really being a problematic exploit. Most people (including myself) would probably get a better ROI by spending the time some people use to log out and back in paying more attention to the market -- I know I could make a lot more money than I do, but I'm lazy and I make enough.

3) An example of something WIA that goes beyond what the devs planned, but that they decided to let go, is using Legacy armor/weapons to pass Bound items from one char to another in your legacy. They said BoL was absolutely not designed for that, but that they didn't care that people use it for that. (As an aside, I consider that an exploit that I wish they would fix, as it essentially lets people gear up fresh 55 alts with BiS (78P) gear, which is why I think we see a lot of overgeared chars that don't seem to know their class in FPs).

Anyway, I guess you could say that I think that it IS an exploit (as exploit is defined), but (since BW appears to know of it and accept people doing it) that it isn't an "exploit" in the sense of something that is "wrong".
Q: What did the five fingers say to the face?
A: It's a SLAP!

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
02.08.2014 , 12:25 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by eartharioch View Post
1) I'm not sure what you mean by a 'semantic' issue. An exploit is an exploit, there's no such thing as "an exploit in name only". Intent is difficult (impossible) to prove 100%, but we can easily infer intent by observing people's actions. If your actions serve only to reset the mission list, you are exploiting.
You're speaking in absolutes, rather than in degrees. Fair enough. But if you insist on using absolutes, it is sloppy logic to "infer" intent. Without a dev comment on the actual intent -- it wouldn't technically be an exploit.
Quote: Originally Posted by eartharioch View Post
2) Whether or not that exploit is worth BW doing anything about is a different story. In this case, running a single tier one mission barely (if at all) takes longer than logging out and back in or rezoning, so I don't see it really being a problematic exploit. Most people (including myself) would probably get a better ROI by spending the time some people use to log out and back in paying more attention to the market -- I know I could make a lot more money than I do, but I'm lazy and I make enough.
Agreed.
Quote: Originally Posted by eartharioch View Post
3) An example of something WIA that goes beyond what the devs planned, but that they decided to let go, is using Legacy armor/weapons to pass Bound items from one char to another in your legacy. They said BoL was absolutely not designed for that, but that they didn't care that people use it for that. (As an aside, I consider that an exploit that I wish they would fix, as it essentially lets people gear up fresh 55 alts with BiS (78P) gear, which is why I think we see a lot of overgeared chars that don't seem to know their class in FPs).
I suppose. But doesn't it seem that adding the Gree Lightsaber (hilts being the only item not movable by legacy gear before that point) moved it past "the devs don't care if the exploit is used" to "the devs are actively making it easier to use that exploit"?

I'm also not convinced that shlepping mods via legacy is the reason for overgeared characters not knowing their class in FPs. This has been a problem LONG before this practice was widespread.
Quote: Originally Posted by eartharioch View Post
Anyway, I guess you could say that I think that it IS an exploit (as exploit is defined), but (since BW appears to know of it and accept people doing it) that it isn't an "exploit" in the sense of something that is "wrong".
That's fair to say. But remember that "exploit" is a very charged word in an MMO. It's usage in these types of games can hardly be separated from "wrong".

psandak's Avatar


psandak
02.08.2014 , 12:45 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by MaximilianPower View Post
Indeed, it sounds like the difference is that I'm more focused on optimization. Like I said earlier, this is all fairly new to me; my "business" is fairly small-time, limited mostly to the augment market (kits and the augments themselves), and a few CT items. So the scope and scale of my sales are undoubtedly minor compared to yours. For that reason, I feel the need to maximize the little bit of business have, hence the relog dance to ensure I'm not leaving anything on the table.

Is it necessary? Certainly not. And I'm sure if/when I reach a higher sales plateau, this will be less of a concern for me. But for now, it seems like my best path to maximize profitability, which is more important when you don't have a lot of resources to work with.
I guess I have been working MMO markets for so long that even when I was small time in SWTOR, I have always done things the way I explained; I learned how to work markets in EQ1 and every MMO I have played since, the same strategies work.

eartharioch's Avatar


eartharioch
02.08.2014 , 01:44 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
You're speaking in absolutes, rather than in degrees. Fair enough. But if you insist on using absolutes, it is sloppy logic to "infer" intent. Without a dev comment on the actual intent -- it wouldn't technically be an exploit.

That's fair to say. But remember that "exploit" is a very charged word in an MMO. It's usage in these types of games can hardly be separated from "wrong".
*Shrug* I try not to let myself be limited by other people's limitations
(Especially when I didn't capitalize EXPLOIT, misspell 50 adjacent words, say that everybody around you should be banned, and toss in a few dozen exclamation points, which activities I frequently see accompanying more "agitated" uses of the word 'exploit')

Also, it's not *sloppy* to infer intent, it's *necessary* since we have no reliable mind reading devices. And while a developer's claimed intent may be the final word as far as enforcement goes, it is not dispositive in a factual sense.
Q: What did the five fingers say to the face?
A: It's a SLAP!