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Bad healer needs help


MidichIorian's Avatar


MidichIorian
02.04.2014 , 03:27 PM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by NoFishing View Post
7K HPS would be 3.5K TPS, which means a tank only needs to generate 2.7K to keep aggro off you assuming you are staying at range. If your tank can't manage at least 2.7K TPS, they need to work on their rotation. Outside of a couple of very specific situations, healer threat drops should be completely unnecessary at end game.
That might be true if you're in a somewhat skilled guild but I've reched the point, both as DD and healer, where I'm actually surprised if the tank manages to keep aggro throughout a pug raid. And I'm not just refering to specific scenarios lthat are commonly known as tricky for the tank, like Kephess on TfB (aggro is always all over the place on that one).

morfius's Avatar


morfius
02.05.2014 , 04:32 AM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by Adaliaya View Post
Now I'm member of a guild. Managed finally find one I tried one FP with them and they said I performed well everything was smooth and silk there maybe it's not about me being good healer, it's propably they being good but at least no wipes or even deaths Tank propably had good mitigation he often had about seven mobs on him and yet even I managed easily keep him alive. DPS also performed great, it was fast run and no one pulled additional mobs. Tank even apologized me when few mobs came to me he was great. I hope I get to play with them again someday
See, it works
/friend them, ask in guild chat when you want a FP, ask there for advises also, nice guild can make so big difference in game play.

Only note, this is not WoW, normals running to healer have to be 1st DPS targets... it is tank fault only if stronger one/s from pack go for healer and each FP has at least 1 spread trash that need some DPS coordination (LOS pulls need it too).
"The Aing-Tii have a different view of the Force. Not in terms of Jedi or Dark Jedi—of black and white, as it were—but in a way I like to think of as a full-color rainbow."

morfius's Avatar


morfius
02.05.2014 , 04:39 AM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by MidichIorian View Post
That might be true if you're in a somewhat skilled guild but I've reched the point, both as DD and healer, where I'm actually surprised if the tank manages to keep aggro throughout a pug raid. And I'm not just refering to specific scenarios lthat are commonly known as tricky for the tank, like Kephess on TfB (aggro is always all over the place on that one).
Don't forget gear gaps in PuGs... we have played agro games with a friend... I used my 66/69s (66s main/off hands and some drop tank 69s) geared Shadow tank and he was on full 78 geared Sage DPS.
There is no way tank can keep agro with such cap (shadow rotation is not so complicated on stationary targets after all) without taunting... and there are some fights when taunt is not good to be used in wrong time.
"The Aing-Tii have a different view of the Force. Not in terms of Jedi or Dark Jedi—of black and white, as it were—but in a way I like to think of as a full-color rainbow."

NoFishing's Avatar


NoFishing
02.05.2014 , 11:16 AM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by morfius View Post
Don't forget gear gaps in PuGs... we have played agro games with a friend... I used my 66/69s (66s main/off hands and some drop tank 69s) geared Shadow tank and he was on full 78 geared Sage DPS.
There is no way tank can keep agro with such cap (shadow rotation is not so complicated on stationary targets after all) without taunting... and there are some fights when taunt is not good to be used in wrong time.
That was with a geared DPS, and I'm not arguing that a geared DPS cannot pull threat from an undergeared tank. We are talking about pulling threat as a healer and needing to use threat drops, and I maintain that it just isn't a significant skill for a healer at endgame. There is quite literally only a single instance where I use a threat drop when I'm on my healer, and that's on TfB second phase. The common cases are:

1. You are doing story content where the incoming damage is trivial. You are not putting out 7K effective HPS, you will probably not even break 3K eHPS on average, unless you are solo healing. Even if your tank is in DPS gear with no mitigation, your eHPS are never going to be high enough to pull aggro from a boss. And note that it is effective HPS that matters - overhealing does not generate threat. Against trash pulls or adds, we already know that threat drops and guard do nothing for a healer's threat.

2. You are doing progession content that actually stresses your healing ability, the tank's mitigation, and the awareness of your DPS. You are not doing this content with a seriously undergeared tank. If your tank has the gear to survive the hits in the first place, they have the gear to hold threat off a healer. Probably not the most geared FOTM DPS, but that is what guards, taunts, and tank swaps are for.

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
02.05.2014 , 11:41 AM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by MidichIorian View Post
Not to be a dick or anything but learn to use your aggro drop, you are going to need it when you have 7K HPS at end-game. I can't remember the last time I, on DD or healer, didnt use my aggro drop on pretty much every CD during group content.
As NoFishing commented, 7K HPS is not the same as 7K HPS effective. Overheals don't count towards threat.

Go look at the torparse statistics for healers. Pick any ops-level fight. The top players in a heal-intensive fight do closer to 4k effective.

It's not that using your threat drop is a bad idea, it's just that failing to use one's threat drop is not the reason mobs come after you ...

Adaliaya's Avatar


Adaliaya
02.05.2014 , 02:08 PM | #46
Threat drop is at least for me who am still leveling FP healer, useful tool, when there comes too many mobs on me to manage. It can save my life.
BUT with PUGs it has also caused one votekick and some annoyed responses from DPS/tank so I use it as little as possible

mikebevo's Avatar


mikebevo
02.05.2014 , 02:27 PM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by Adaliaya View Post
Threat drop is at least for me who am still leveling FP healer, useful tool, when there comes too many mobs on me to manage. It can save my life.
BUT with PUGs it has also caused one votekick and some annoyed responses from DPS/tank so I use it as little as possible
HAHAHAHA Don't worry about them they are idiots.

Threat dump is useless if the tank has not taunted the mobs or if the mobs have not been damaged. Say your threat with that mob is 100, ok so you have a special ability that will drop the threat by 99%, so now you only have 1% threat. Tank still has 0 threat since there has been no AoE taunt, and DPS has 0 since they have not damaged the mob, so 1 is still greater that 0, so they are still after you.

That said continue to use it if it makes you feel better, I use mine because I like the animation on the smuggler one. On your sawbones, use disappearing act, it drops you out of combat, so it is a 100% dump, the mobs will move to dps and tank with that. Then don't heal until you see the tank and dps with tunnel vision attacking the mobs, then go back to healing.

On your sage, pointed away from you group, use force push and then run to the middle of dps and the tank and wait for them to get a clue or to accidentally damage the mobs with AoE attacks.

Your job is to heal, not tank. Any good tank is not going to allow you to do their job, well unless you pull, you pull you tank.

Quote: Originally Posted by MidichIorian View Post
Not to be a dick or anything but learn to use your aggro drop, you are going to need it when you have 7K HPS at end-game. I can't remember the last time I, on DD or healer, didnt use my aggro drop on pretty much every CD during group content.
I never use agro dump in progression raiding except in the very few fights that call for it (like TWH NIM). I have never pulled from the tank and I have been in the top 10 on TORparse more than a few times. Like that means something, it doesn't, but I am better geared than 99% of the players in 55 HMFP and I am not pulling from them either. My main is a sawbones.

Now the other day I did pull from tank and dps on my 72 gear sage in a 50 HMFP, but it was not from healing, it was from doing DPS. After playing a sawbones for 2 years, I would have sworn that could never happen.

For the most part Aggro Dump is a waste of a GCD for a healer. Again Adaliaya not saying don't use it, if it makes you feel better then by all means. To me panic causes most wipes, so if it makes you less panicky use it. It is also good practice for when you are playing dps.

Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
It's not that using your threat drop is a bad idea, it's just that failing to use one's threat drop is not the reason mobs come after you ...
In operations with 2 healers, All aggro dump is going to do is possibly move the mobs over to the other healer. May be a decent idea if the other healer is a Commando in heavy aromer, but it would really tick off my sage in my group. Just starting doing 16m Ops, so that may be an idea there where it will be harder for them to figure out who did it.

morfius's Avatar


morfius
02.05.2014 , 06:49 PM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by NoFishing View Post
That was with a geared DPS, and I'm not arguing that a geared DPS cannot pull threat from an undergeared tank. We are talking about pulling threat as a healer and needing to use threat drops, and I maintain that it just isn't a significant skill for a healer at endgame. There is quite literally only a single instance where I use a threat drop when I'm on my healer, and that's on TfB second phase. The common cases are:

1. You are doing story content where the incoming damage is trivial. You are not putting out 7K effective HPS, you will probably not even break 3K eHPS on average, unless you are solo healing. Even if your tank is in DPS gear with no mitigation, your eHPS are never going to be high enough to pull aggro from a boss. And note that it is effective HPS that matters - overhealing does not generate threat. Against trash pulls or adds, we already know that threat drops and guard do nothing for a healer's threat.

2. You are doing progession content that actually stresses your healing ability, the tank's mitigation, and the awareness of your DPS. You are not doing this content with a seriously undergeared tank. If your tank has the gear to survive the hits in the first place, they have the gear to hold threat off a healer. Probably not the most geared FOTM DPS, but that is what guards, taunts, and tank swaps are for.
Only way I see mobs on healer is when they are not hit at all or there is agro dump / no agro list mechanic ... healing agro is no issue for any sane tank over same mob.
Large part of it due this over-healing mechanics ... other games had it backward - over-heal was multiplied as agro.
Here tanking and healing is different and intentionally some mobs are DPS job ... common reason healers get smashed are brain dead DPSs that doesn't follow kill order. There was so many times I have "tanked" & burned some mobs on my DDs just to remove them from healer... never got complains about that

But check again what I quoted, DD or heal ... for some DPS is easy to do it with lucky openers even on similar gear, on any DPS it is inevitable with gear gap.
I was just noting that when go as DD you have to expect that you may over agro some tanks (even if they are not bad ones) and react accordingly.
"The Aing-Tii have a different view of the Force. Not in terms of Jedi or Dark Jedi—of black and white, as it were—but in a way I like to think of as a full-color rainbow."

morfius's Avatar


morfius
02.05.2014 , 06:53 PM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by Adaliaya View Post
Threat drop is at least for me who am still leveling FP healer, useful tool, when there comes too many mobs on me to manage. It can save my life.
BUT with PUGs it has also caused one votekick and some annoyed responses from DPS/tank so I use it as little as possible
Those tank and DPSs was surely crying for place in your ignore list.
On FP ... if mobs are on you drop may only help tank/dps get them faster ... if nobody attack/attacked those mobs, drop will do nothing.
When you go to multiple healers content, drop most probably will send those mobs to next healer... if not attacked again.
"The Aing-Tii have a different view of the Force. Not in terms of Jedi or Dark Jedi—of black and white, as it were—but in a way I like to think of as a full-color rainbow."

Dodasa's Avatar


Dodasa
02.05.2014 , 06:59 PM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by Adaliaya View Post
Only problem is that finding replacement tank takes forever, so I decided to get along. It went well, tough when last boss had about 70% health left there was only me and DPS left. That was Cademimu and I just couldn't heal trough those fires. Then tank started to tell us die with purpose because he was bored. He was quite selfish tank. But we didn't wipe

Thanks for encouraging me, I almost gave up with my healers:-)
I healed a Cademimu where the tank stood in the fire died then cried. I stated cant heal thru the fire he said of sorry my bad. One of the dps stood and burned with him. Myself and the other dps finished near full health easily without them.
DADO, ILLISAR, SPAZTICMONKEY, RYSTO