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LF Constructive Criticism!


BreakingNews's Avatar


BreakingNews
02.02.2014 , 01:53 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by ZooMzy View Post
Right, but again, I'm still having trouble dissecting the true problem. Sometimes, I try to call out HPS was too low and the healers need to step up their game. Then I discover in the next pull, DPS running behind different obstacles, blatantly positioning themselves in a manner that forces the healers to fix LoS issues and forcing them to get out of range of the tanks, and thus, low heal numbers.

As a group, I'm just not entirely sure, especially since I'm not exactly sure how to come up with numbers each group should be hitting outside of DPS, especially not for say, what kind of mitigation a tank should be doing in HM content like DF and DP. So, given that the numbers are more likely a problem across all three areas (2-3k in HPS for both healers, 1.9-2.9k in DPS for certain DPS), I'm looking for more of an insightful look into how we play, as the numbers only tell us what the resulting problem in the group is, not a solution or where the playstyle is weak at.

EDIT: I'll get some log files here shortly, after the next couple of posts, and throw them up for viewing.
Well, from what it sounds like, you need to make sure all your raid members are up to par with your expectations. Such as gearing correctly, knowing their rotations and jobs, and understanding raid mechanics. Depending on your raid composition, you can have a multitude of strategies that optimize each raid members class/job to the maximum efficiency. From the videos and logs, there is a lot of room for improvement on every member of your raid.
Conqueror of the Dread Fortress & Deposer of the Dread Masters FASCINATE "KEVIN" RAMEN

Macio's Avatar


Macio
02.02.2014 , 03:05 AM | #12
i run an average group and we just managed to clear all HM content.

one thing that came out from our progression was that Tanks needed to improve. what was impossible for them (I asked them to do something and they were like *** you on about - its too hard) now is easy to do.

Look at your tanks first in fight for fight basis. make sure they do everything that is required to improve DPS uptime on the boss, make DPS live easier by stacking adds on the boss, or keep boss facing away from group. Help healers by adjusting your tactics so group can stack - makes AoE healing much easier and though so much smoother.

Both mentioned fights Gobth'rok and Corruptor Zero hugely benefit from stacking at the back of the boss for AoE heals.

DPS - look at each DPS and ask them to tell you how much accuracy, crit, surge, alacrity they have. All DPS should be >99.5% accuracy and no more then one enchantment with crit.
Another thing is that some DPS classes need to change build for certain fights until you have enough DPS so you can take a hit on one or two players not doing their most. Gobth'rok was one that when we first tried to kill him i was in SS as sharpshooter and was doing poor 2.3k I swapped to doting class (due to interrupts to my skills like speed shot) and i DPS went up to 2.9k. From hitting enrage to easily killing it from one pull to another. Also if you have sniper in your group (or two) you should get then to go hybrid build and when small adds land all they have to do is DoT with skill that is same as Sharp Bomb, then use one granage on them and tank will do the rest. Same with Tyrans in DP, Dotting class will do much better on this fight then stright up damage class.

Healers - look at logs why your raid is wiping - too much damage on group from adds, off tank not grabbing enough agro on adds, boss killing people - tanks not holding aggro on boss. In general unless you healers are bad, this should be least of your problems. For corruptor zero fight, get one of your DPS (sage) to dispell DoT from chest laser skill which will help healers a lot. Stack on the boss for AoE heals.

I will watch some of the movies when on faster internet connection and will comment on what we do different to make the fights easier. But having DPS logs from failed attempts, and maybe some videos from each fight that you struggling with will help a lot to help you.
Golfik Gunslinger of Polish Galactic Legion on The Red Eclipse UE PGL
My Youtube channel with Swtor movies:http://www.youtube.com/user/maciopoka
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Darth_Dreselus's Avatar


Darth_Dreselus
02.02.2014 , 03:35 AM | #13
Just a quick thought, if you are constantly running Sin and Jugg, get the Sin to deal with the adds. The damage from Grob is not hard to heal (if you think the Jugg is under geared) and a Sin will have much easier time keeping threat on the adds with Discharge used on cd. The idea is not to have the tank DPS the adds down but to simply take them to the lava pools, the adds die very fast if they are kept there. Let the tank even run through or jump across the lava. As long as he is not standing in it, he should not take much damage. I tank this by 'dancing' around the lava until all adds die and then get ready to hit the next group.

Playing into strengths and weaknesses of each class is something you may need to do as raid leader and if you are not sure there is wealth of information around.

Also I noticed that the Sorc is a clicker and moves camera with keyboard. While I am not going to go 'lol noob' it is generally a sub optimal way to play even if less crucial in PvE than in PvP. Try to have him practice rotation on a dummy only using key binds and see if that makes any difference to him and your group. His rotation is also a bit off, particularly not using Thundering Blast on cd which is where majority of Lightning damage comes from. Furthermore casting FL without proc, casting Chain Lightning without proc and using Shock rotationally as well a for some reason Force Slow on a boss with Immunity. All these mistakes add up and lower his potential DPS. Swtorboard.org has some excellent and detailed guides up on DPS.

Having logs from all DPS would help us fine tune their rotations too or at least see who is 'weak link'. In the meantime just have them look up either Swtorboard or Dulfy and see how far off they are from optimal rotations.

Healers seem to be okay but this is not a taxing fight to heal so hard to tell. I can't speak for the Sorc due to unknown usage of Static Barrier which lowers shown HPS/EHPS considerably (ST healing loss of cca 400 HPS when used as soon as Deionised debuff wears off, fully effective).

It is hard to tell if you are taking too much damage, but have a look at this and see how close you are to those mitigation ratings and change your gear accordingly. You are also saying that you run with 78s. Provided you bought these with comms, the mods and enhancements are worse than 72 token ones.

EDIT: looking through the videos linked I would have to agree with BreakingNews that there is a lot of room for improvement for most people taking those videos. Again, just have them do some research on both their class and the fights.
The Last Centurions Derpyn - Sage / Toughen - Vanguard / Bluffin - Scoundrel / Roughen - Sentinel
Filthy-rich - Juggernaut / Timberwulf - Sniper / Ironwill - Mercenary / Ahuizotl - Assassin

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Levram's Avatar


Levram
02.02.2014 , 06:45 AM | #14
As other posters have mentioned, seeing wipes often tells you much more about a team's weaknesses and areas for improvement than simply looking at the clears and trying to pick out the shortcomings. With wipes you get a chance to see where the failures are occurring as well as the team members' ability to adapt to new strategies in real time.

That being said, not a lot of people post their progression wipes online. However, a great way to gain some insight into your team is to have an outside individual run some operations with you. If you know someone in another guild that is HM DF/DP farming, perhaps has cleared some nightmare content, and they are able to bring an Alt to fill in for a missing member on your team some time, they would probably be able to give you a tonne of feedback with just an hour or two of gameplay. Ideally it would be someone who is operations leader for their team and has a sense for total team performance and good trouble shooting skills.

I know that when I tank or heal with someone else, I have a pretty solid sense of their ability within a boss fight or two, especially with healing, where so much of the experience is how a fight "feels" as it progresses.

So reach out to a trusted friend or two outside the guild and see if you can fit them into some runs.

P.S. And for Grob'Thok, the off-tank (ideally Assassin) takes care of the adds on their own by repeatedly running them through the lava pools. The rest of the team should help the off-tank by dropping the lava pools in a helpful pattern. A small circle works very well, so that the tank can hop in and out across the circle, avoiding as many lava stacks on themselves while dragging the adds through it repeatedly. DPS should basically never need to touch the adds. So you see, the root of the enrage problem is "off-tank not killing adds," but they're not alone in that responsibility. The lava pools need to be placed logically by everyone else on the team.
Acuzel (Assassin DPS) Ivs (Operative Healer) Praeco (Powertech Tank)
The Imperial Order
The Shadowlands

Macio's Avatar


Macio
02.02.2014 , 09:01 AM | #15
i am not sure on Gobthrok "tank need to kill adds". we never do it that way but its just us.
I dot adds, use grenades and usualy other DPS adds their little bit of damage to it.
Commnado will do Mortal Volley on CD when adds get close to boss, our two sentinel's would use sabre throw on the adds. Off tank would try to grab then if he can.

There is a lot of ways of killing this boss, for one DPS on adds to only tank killing them thru lava.

But knowing who is struggling most on current content and helping them to improve should be your priority.

But they need to want to improve. so they need to all upload logs so you (or us) can look at it and advise them what they are doing wrong. If they refuse to upload logs or don't want your help them its your call, wipe till all get fed up with your group or replace them as they don't want to help yourself and your group. I hope you will not have to do it.

I spend a lot of time on dummies with DPS from my group when they are not sure are they doing rotations well etc. I don't mind doing it as i know this will benefit my team in the long run. I have looked thru healer's healing logs when needed, and helped them to improve. Same with tanks on threat etc. its just a case of how much you want to help them to improve and how much they want to improve.
Golfik Gunslinger of Polish Galactic Legion on The Red Eclipse UE PGL
My Youtube channel with Swtor movies:http://www.youtube.com/user/maciopoka
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FridgeLM's Avatar


FridgeLM
02.02.2014 , 09:11 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Macio View Post
i am not sure on Gobthrok "tank need to kill adds". we never do it that way but its just us.
I dot adds, use grenades and usualy other DPS adds their little bit of damage to it.
Commnado will do Mortal Volley on CD when adds get close to boss, our two sentinel's would use sabre throw on the adds. Off tank would try to grab then if he can.

There is a lot of ways of killing this boss, for one DPS on adds to only tank killing them thru lava.
One way is faster and better, one way is slower and worse. It is faster for dps to spec for single target and focus only the boss, leaving the adds to the offtank. If ugnaughts so much as touch the lava, they get a permanent debuff that guarantees that they will die. Yes, if you have sufficient dps you can screw around and pad meters with aoe, but that is not the fastest way to kill the boss.

For a group that actually hit the enrage on Grob'thok, I would never recommend they try aoe. I don't recommend it for any group unless they specifically want to mess around.
<Death and Taxes>

ZooMzy's Avatar


ZooMzy
02.02.2014 , 09:48 AM | #17
Thanks again guys, I really appreciate the feedback.

I'll be taking more of a look into specifically changing things up on how to do things, possibly coming up with some PvP oriented exercises to train raid awareness (overall, I think that's our biggest flaw based on your responses, as people are easily overwhelmed in our group and reaction time is very slow for some).

Also, I'll be sure to get some videos up from our "wipe nights" with more detailed raid logs, only problem is that I have to actually get a recorder of them now. Originally, I had hoped the videos above, especially in the methods that we cleared them, would give a better insight because although they were clears, they were still very inefficient and very ineffective means of killing the boss.

I'll let you guys know in a future post when I have taken the time to upload, thanks again!
"Theatricality and Deception are powerful agents. You must become more than just a man in the mind of your opponent."
Zuhara the Eternal (Keyboard) Warrior

cxten's Avatar


cxten
02.02.2014 , 03:18 PM | #18
General strategy and tanking can certainly help as others have mentioned, but here are some comments about the two people making the videos. I think somehow cultivating an atmosphere where it's okay to make suggestions and discuss improvement is going to be important.

1. The dps sorc making the draxus and grobthok videos needs some work on rotation. Single target: force lightning is being cast without the proc (better just to spam lightning strike), and other non-optimal things. AOE: I don't really play a dps sorc, but I think you want to force storm, wait for proc, then hit chain lightning as soon as it procs (i.e. break the force storm channel --- force isn't an issue for lightning sorcs). The sorc in the video is usually waiting for the end of the force storm to hit the instant chain lightning and/or hard casting chain lightning to start. Also, altogether too much time is spent single target when there are 3+ adds. Maybe others who are more familiar can confirm my suggestions.

Single target rotation priority: 1. Keep up your dot. 2. Thundering blast and crushing darkness on cooldown. 3. Chain lightning and force lightning on proc (you delay using it if it's time to do item 1 or 2). 4. Fill with lightning strike.

Also, maybe you skip crushing darkness when you're taking damage (I don't really play a lightning sorc, as I said) due to the pushback.

2. The healing sorc making the S&V videos: He doesn't cast while moving, and even when still seems to have low APM and to sit doing nothing occasionally. When nothing too drastic is going on, you should still be casting usually. If he's doing this so he doesn't run into force issues, he should be tapping more (when nothing big is going on is a good time) and putting a bubble on himself to regain the life, say. Or contributing dps if the healing is really easy. Some sort of APM practice would be good, as would practice casting while moving.

Also, he's delaying casting innervate too much sometimes (even casting dark infusion when it's available), which should be cast roughly on cooldown whenever it's still needed. I have heard of healing styles involving saving it in case burst is needed (I don't personally do this unless people are nearly topped off), but when multiple people are near half health is not a time to save it.

----

All this is not to criticize them too much or anything; they're doing various things right. As I said above, somehow cultivating acceptance of constructive criticism will be key to improving your group.

Amantino's Avatar


Amantino
02.03.2014 , 01:21 AM | #19
Hitting enrage on Grob'Thok means your dps are slacking. A lot. Theres no need for live dps-meter (like you said, some refused), but everyone should upload logs after raid to compare. Because someone is doing something wrong. I'm not saying to point fingers at low dps, just help them realize they are underperforming so they can improve their own play. There are a lot of players who think they are doing okay, and doesn't realize they can improve a LOT.
Jennifér - Marauder
<Reckoning>

The Red Eclipse

Mayaserena's Avatar


Mayaserena
02.03.2014 , 11:29 AM | #20
For all those commenting, please recognize that the Grob'thok video posted is our first clear, not a representative sample of our raid group. We haven't hit rage once since that video was shot. Thanks and have a nice day.
Contra Sanctus - Begeren Colony - Imperial
Loot everything that isn't nailed down, and carry a prybar for the things that are! -- Maya's Code