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The REAL Most Powerful Revisited

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
The REAL Most Powerful Revisited

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.31.2014 , 10:25 PM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker View Post
Tutaminis is the reason why we have put people like Revan and Sateele on even footing with Saba for Control to begin with because its understood you need about equal power to the enemy to use it. Corran Horns displays of Tutaminis easily outstrip even Revan, but he cant TK at all because thats just his natural enemy. Saba is stronger then he is, my point is Natural Talents ARENT indicative of the Force Users power as abilities they are Naturally better with generally go above and beyond their USUAL level of skill and power.


The other problem is if Surik was able to beat both of these people being powered by the most powerful Dark side Nexus where she was feeling the Nauseating effects of and able to win in that condition and yet still lose to Nyriss on LESS powerful Nexus where she was feeling the Effects far LESS then there is no reason what so ever to conclude that Nyriss isnt straight more powerful then her, Nor is there any reason to conclude that every member of the Dark Council is in fact more powerful then any member of the Triumviate baring MAYBE Nyhlis. Traya has Force Lightning, she has Force Speed and she has Force Valor and the ability to augment herself Physically. If she was pulling on that Nexus and is as powerful as you guys claim while Meetra was Nauseous from it then she should have easily beaten Meetra in the same way Nyriss did. As it stands i see NO reason what so ever to conclude she was stronger in KoToR II then she was when she faced Nyriss. In fact it sounds to reverse that she was in a worse state when she faced Traya then when she faced Nyriss.
Or we could chalk up Meetra's performance in Revan to the failings of an author who clearly has little knowledge of the character, the lore surrounding that character, and most lore in general.

That's what I do. I mean, I would post my own thoughts on the matter, but I doubt anyone would listen to me. (Does anyone else find that surprising?)
Added Chapter 44 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.31.2014 , 10:26 PM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker View Post
Looks to me like Ya Kenobi has Valor feats on Par with that of Saba, but Saba beats him in Sense and is on a similar Level of TK. All-in-all they are pretty darn close all things considered. I am questioning Meetra's spot right now as the Triumviate is for me now being put under a giant micro scope and arent measuring up to what I remember them as from the game, thanks to some of these quotes from the Novel.
I think Kenobi gets the Control and Alter edges between him and Saba.
Added Chapter 44 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
01.31.2014 , 10:32 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Or we could chalk up Meetra's performance in Revan to the failings of an author who clearly has little knowledge of the character, the lore surrounding that character, and most lore in general.

That's what I do. I mean, I would post my own thoughts on the matter, but I doubt anyone would listen to me. (Does anyone else find that surprising?)
Its still C-cannon and technically goes above the game in general. So whether you or any one else APPROVES means little. The problem I am having is one thing doesnt match up to the other. People here seem to almost Worship the Triumviate and yet one of its strongest members Traya was beaten while being empowered by the strongest DS nexus while her opponent was GREATLY weakened by its affects. Later same person on less powerful Nexus feeling LESS of the affects is beaten by a different Dark side user. In the end there is only 1 thing to conclude. Nyriss>Traya, and NONE of the people in KoToR II were any where near as powerful as people seem to think here.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
01.31.2014 , 10:37 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I think Kenobi gets the Control and Alter edges between him and Saba.
I dont know about that, maybe control thanks to Tutaminis but their Valor Feats are nearly Identical, the difference is Saba heals and Kenobi knows tutaminis so I am not sure there.

And again their Alter feats are nearly identical as well bar Kenobi's push so i MIGHT give him the edge there, but I dont think it would by any means be a large one. So I guess maybe he gets the edge in these catagories but it would be such a small edge it would almost not be worth noting. While Saba I think would go above and beyond Kenobi in Sense enough that the overall both are so dang close its nearly impossible to call. At least thats how I see it.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.31.2014 , 10:41 PM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker View Post
Its still C-cannon and technically goes above the game in general. So whether you or any one else APPROVES means little. The problem I am having is one thing doesnt match up to the other. People here seem to almost Worship the Triumviate and yet one of its strongest members Traya was beaten while being empowered by the strongest DS nexus while her opponent was GREATLY weakened by its affects. Later same person on less powerful Nexus feeling LESS of the affects is beaten by a different Dark side user. In the end there is only 1 thing to conclude. Nyriss>Traya, and NONE of the people in KoToR II were any where near as powerful as people seem to think here.
I don't care if its C-canon! Chapter 3 left me crying in a corner! How am I supposed to read the rest of it?

Anyway, I think I'll leave this for Sel and Rayla.
Added Chapter 44 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
01.31.2014 , 10:43 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker View Post
I dont know about that, maybe control thanks to Tutaminis but their Valor Feats are nearly Identical, the difference is Saba heals and Kenobi knows tutaminis so I am not sure there.

And again their Alter feats are nearly identical as well bar Kenobi's push so i MIGHT give him the edge there, but I dont think it would by any means be a large one. So I guess maybe he gets the edge in these catagories but it would be such a small edge it would almost not be worth noting. While Saba I think would go above and beyond Kenobi in Sense enough that the overall both are so dang close its nearly impossible to call. At least thats how I see it.
I think Kenobi gets the edge. To be honest, I can't recall much for Saba that puts her above Kenobi in Alter.
Added Chapter 44 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
01.31.2014 , 10:45 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker View Post
The other problem is if Surik was able to beat both of these people being powered by the most powerful Dark side Nexus where she was feeling the Nauseating effects of and able to win in that condition and yet still lose to Nyriss on LESS powerful Nexus where she was feeling the Effects far LESS then there is no reason what so ever to conclude that Nyriss isnt straight more powerful then her.
I don't believe you understand the theory around this whole thing, though i have to say, we have all been over this MANY times before and we have all reached consensus on this topic.

Firstly, Meetra being a Wound in the Force and given that she wasn't completely corrupted on Malachor V then it is clear that her Wound protected her from the worst of Malachor V and this is evident when she used her Enlightened state to beat the Triumvirate forces, she wasn't massively effected but she was certainly not at full power, her ability to center herself saved her and allowed her to unleash her full power here.

Secondly, the circumstances around the Nyriss debate are much more complicated than that, You have to take into consideration the near fatal damage she suffered at Nathema, something that was so horrible of an experience that she actually felt comfort when she sensed the Dark Side miasma of energy as the Ebon Hawk landed in Kaas City.

Given that it is also canonical fact that Dark Side nexi of various degrees can greatly effect a Light Sider's ability to call upon the Force, such as events when other Jedi have traversed Dromund Kaas and also felt either full on corruption or a total inability to use the Light Side, then you begin to see the issue here.

Where the Exile was still able to call upon her full command of the Light Side when protected by her own 'wound' at Malachor V the source of the Wounds in the Force which is the only explanation as to why she wasn't corrupted heavily like literally every other person that traversed the planet. After spending months completing her re-training as a Jedi Master on Dantooine her Wound in the Force healed completely and then she went to see Bastila.

So when she arrived on Dromund Kaas she no longer enjoyed the luxury of being protected from such anomalies, instead her ability to use the Force was very evidently beyond her capabilities as she used almost no Force Powers at all in any of her major combats and considering that she suffered almost fatally in her experience on Nathema, she clearly wasn't anywhere near her peak abilities.

So TL;DR:

At Malachor V she had an innate protection from it's full effect due to being a Wound in the Force herself allowing her to still call upon the Light Side of the Force and even find a center in herself to focus on. At Dromund Kaas however, being a light-sider, she was incapable of calling on the Force properly, much like many other Jedi were unable to whilst on the planet.
"The Dark Jedi are in many ways more dangerous than the Sith."
Republic Justice

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
01.31.2014 , 11:21 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I don't care if its C-canon! Chapter 3 left me crying in a corner! How am I supposed to read the rest of it?

Anyway, I think I'll leave this for Sel and Rayla.
/Imagines Aurbere in a corner rocking back and forth, jittering...

"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
01.31.2014 , 11:29 PM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
I don't believe you understand the theory around this whole thing, though i have to say, we have all been over this MANY times before and we have all reached consensus on this topic.

Firstly, Meetra being a Wound in the Force and given that she wasn't completely corrupted on Malachor V then it is clear that her Wound protected her from the worst of Malachor V and this is evident when she used her Enlightened state to beat the Triumvirate forces, she wasn't massively effected but she was certainly not at full power, her ability to center herself saved her and allowed her to unleash her full power here.

Secondly, the circumstances around the Nyriss debate are much more complicated than that, You have to take into consideration the near fatal damage she suffered at Nathema, something that was so horrible of an experience that she actually felt comfort when she sensed the Dark Side miasma of energy as the Ebon Hawk landed in Kaas City.

Given that it is also canonical fact that Dark Side nexi of various degrees can greatly effect a Light Sider's ability to call upon the Force, such as events when other Jedi have traversed Dromund Kaas and also felt either full on corruption or a total inability to use the Light Side, then you begin to see the issue here.

Where the Exile was still able to call upon her full command of the Light Side when protected by her own 'wound' at Malachor V the source of the Wounds in the Force which is the only explanation as to why she wasn't corrupted heavily like literally every other person that traversed the planet. After spending months completing her re-training as a Jedi Master on Dantooine her Wound in the Force healed completely and then she went to see Bastila.

So when she arrived on Dromund Kaas she no longer enjoyed the luxury of being protected from such anomalies, instead her ability to use the Force was very evidently beyond her capabilities as she used almost no Force Powers at all in any of her major combats and considering that she suffered almost fatally in her experience on Nathema, she clearly wasn't anywhere near her peak abilities.

So TL;DR:

At Malachor V she had an innate protection from it's full effect due to being a Wound in the Force herself allowing her to still call upon the Light Side of the Force and even find a center in herself to focus on. At Dromund Kaas however, being a light-sider, she was incapable of calling on the Force properly, much like many other Jedi were unable to whilst on the planet.
Except the Naseua and the idea that she barely resisted this both point to the idea that her wound did a whole lot of jack none of the stuff about her wound closing holds up to scrutiny other then people thinking she is more powerful then she is. Just because the wound is not mentioned does not mean its not there. In fact the idea that its not mentioned would generally mean there is no change, no change means she is exactly as she was at the end of KoToR II and as such not as powerful as any have been led to believe.

She was more affected by the more powerful Nexus on Malachor then she was by the Nexus on Dromund Kaas, as Malachor's Nexus was more powerful this is what we would expect. The idea that any jedi that wasn't a wound who would everer landed on Malachor no matter how light side they were is completely unfounded. The only people that were brought to that planet were people being brought there to be trained for the Dark side, it eased their falls it didnt force them to fall, none of them were "enlightened" and thus none of them were as pure Light as Meetra was.


The whole Nathema thing has its points but that doenst change the fact that Malachor as a STRONGER dark side Nexus had a STRONGER affect on her. Hell how can a Light sider at all feel ease landing on a Dark side Nexus with out having some form of Force Corruption inside themselves. The idea that she felt comfort from landing at Kaas city openly suggests that her wound is 100% in tact. If it wasnt then a Dark Side nexus would in no way feel comfortable to a Light sider, but because she herself is a corruption of the force and area of Corrupted for energy like a Nexus WOULD comfort her to a point.


Sorry to say this but everything you point to as "evidence" her wound closed actually supports it being open still. In other words the idea that she was weaker at Kaas then she was at Malachor the more you look at it the more it comes out to be total Horse crap. I get that all of you love KoToR II to the point that every single character in it is on par with those of the era just before and after, but the more you look at the actual books and get away from game mechanics the more this falls completely flat. It was a dark time for both Jedi and Sith where much of the powerful beings were either dead or in hiding and all of the ones that were making a splash at that time were mere shadows by comparison to the ones that came before and after. The more thats talked about the more its obvious Meetra was properly portraid in Revan and it was all of you wearing the rose tinted goggles that made you think she was stronger or more important then she was.


Edit: I originally believed the wound closing thing because i was under the impression that Meetra did not feel the affects of Malachor V at all. The Idea that she did feel the affects but "They werent as bad" is total garbage all it is, is an over-estimation of Malachor V's affect on people who have achieved elightenment. That whole game has been over hyped and over estimated from its characters to its planets. This is why its hard for you guys to accept that Meetra in the game and in the book are one in the same.


Edit 2: This whole KoToR 2 thing seems to be pushing my buttons again and i am likely going to rant on and on and on about just how over hyped everything in it is. I had no problem with the characters originally though i found the story poor but its the Over hypedness of the characters and the locations that has me up in arms just as much as Aurbere is over Over Hypedness of Revan, and as far as i am concerned both are over hyped on a near even scale. The only difference is that at least there have been people to combat the Over Hype that Revan recieved while Traya, and Meetra run rampant with out any checks or balances and C-cannon information in the book is attempted to be "rationalized" because there is no way Meetra was really that weak . End of story she is that weak get over it.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.01.2014 , 06:10 AM | #40
Tune, forgive me, but surely you see that you could be accused of wearing equally rose tinted spectacles? How else would you be able to claim that the KOTOR II era was simply weak? What sense does that even make?

Vrook Lamar and the other members of the Jedi Council were appointed to those positions before the dark wars, before the Jedi Civil War and before the Mandalorian Wars. They were the most powerful members of the Jedi Order, which itself has produced prodigies such as Revan and Malak and never been said to be weak.

And then we have Sion, who rose to prominence during the Great Sith War - was he weak too? Forgive me but weak individuals cannot achieve immortality through channeling raw power in the dark side - period.

And then we have Traya, who could peer thousands of years into the future, percieve the shatterpoints of others with ease, heal individuals with grievous injury and sustain terrible injury herself and attack the Exile telkinetically despite being severed from the Force! Do we lump her into the weak pile as well? On what grounds?

And then we have the Exile, who after being severed from the Force grew stronger and stronger and stronger with every kill she made, she subverted entire armies almost single-handedly and then stormed an academy of assassins and Sith, and I don't care how weak you think they were, its still a bloody academy of Force Users numbering in possible 100 or more! Meetra prior to this being one of the leading generals during the Jedi Civil War.

Heck don't even get me started on Nihilus, possibly the most powerful Force entity bar Luke Skywalker.

Yes there have been many wars in which many people have died, but this is hardly evidence to assert that only the weak and inferior are left over. Most the Jedi Council survived the war and were not replaced but whatever weak folk were left over. In fact I think every member survived the war - Jedi apathy for you. Master Kavar in particular gained a great deal of experience and acclaim during the Jedi Civil War - the Jedi Council being the best of the current order.

And then we have the various Exiles and lost. Kreia has nothing to do with the war, she is not a weak left over from the Sith or the Jedi, she left the Order and went into exile. For all we know she could have been among the most powerful, or perhaps not, but her abilities define her power not her context. The same can be said for Meetra, who herself was one of the few survivors of the Jedi Civil War which would indicate she was in fact one of the strongest.

And then we have the Lost Jedi, who are not the stragglers left over from war, but Force Users who for various reasons went unnoticed and never trained as Jedi, there is nothing to suggest they are not powerful.

Basically its arbitrary, you lack a scrap of evidence to support it. Please allows logic and reason to resurface and look to comparison of Force ability, as opposed to making broad strokes about the Force Users of this period being weak, irregardless of the fact that they stand up to Force Users from other respective eras.

To claim that "oh all the tough guys had been killed at that point" is just a bit silly I feel, its an attempt to discredit the entire era on ultimately purely theoretical grounds. Many Jedi and Sith survived the events of the previous wars, and many have demonstrated themselves to be very powerful in their own right. If you really feel that was that Obsidian were trying to portray in KOTOR II then you are mistaken, about a great many things.

On the other hand, the evidence for our arguments are sound, allow me to present some:

  • Meetra Surik was a wound in the Force which would protect her from the effects of a dark side nexus as the Force would literally be incapable of penetrating the empty void that surrounds her. She is a dead spot in the Force, a place where "its will can be denied." I think the meaning there is clear, the Force cannot affect her.

  • This is supported by the fact that she is immune to Nihilus power, Nihilus effectively being a human replica of Malachor V - a wound in the Force wreathed in a dark side nexus.

  • Malachor V is one of the strongest dark side nexuses in the galaxy:

    "There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface—drowns them in the power of the dark side. It corrupts all life, and it feeds on death."

    I fail to see how a being strong in the light side of the Force could function on such a world, let alone single-handedly defeat an academy of Sith and two powerful Sith Lords.

  • Meetra's wound would have closed naturally. Unlike Nihilus she did not succumb to it and allow it to grow larger, a wound in the Force being a dark side manifestation. A being strong in the light side of the Force slowly regaining her connection to the Force would find an effective dark side stain inside her slowly diminish. This is perfectly empirical evidence supported by the fact that nobody mentions her wound in the novel. PIS? Probably, but at the same time through Drew's incompetence he inadvertedly supports this argument. If Meetra remained a wound in the Force, people would notice. Yet Lord Scourge doesn't even seem to bat an eyelid?

  • As Lady has said repeatedly light side users have been profoundly effected by the dark side nexus on Dromund Kaas, Ben Skywalker if I recall could barely move and Yoda himself struggled to call on the Force. All evidence, regardless of the novel's content, points to Meetra being effected by the dark side nexus profoundly.

So it is far from illogical to assert that Meetra, no longer protected by her wound in the Force, found her ability on Dromund Kaas diminished. Far better than assuming that Meetra is simple weak (despite Revan seeing her as his equal), the SIth Triumvirate were weak, and everyone else in that period were just weak. Come now.

If you still disagree, I'd ask you to respond to the above evidence point by point - because I can't actually comprehend what the above is saying. Though this is going to have to gain traction if we want to change the list.